jacketsdb23

The issue at Lodi was a complicated one - most people new to the sport don't get, and people who have been involved for a while argue over. I never had a problem over there when I was actively jumping more, but I would never send a new or newer jumper there unless they were under direct supervision from someone I trusted. The accident with Brett on Sept.17th (read above) is a microcosm of what was going on: Brett came to another local DZ a couple weeks before this accident. I was S&TA. I would not let him jump the wingsuit without an instructor. He wasn't very current and kind of had an attitude that was not really receptive to our constructive suggestions. He left and now we all know what happened next. Is that a Lodi issue, or a Brett issue? Some will say Brett was an adult and was licensed and chose to do that and it killed him. Some places do there best to help those who aren't keen on helping themselves. And that is probably the biggest difference between Lodi and some other places. Lodi will let you be an adult, largely make your own choices, and deal with the consequences. Except swooping..don't touch the front risers. Lodi supporters will point to things like no swooping, I've seen Bill kick people of the DZ for unsafe things, etc. etc. And that is all true. However, there was this "let adults be adults" attitude that got more than one person killed, because as we all know, adults sometimes don't know how to be adults - especially skydivers. The TI issue was criminal in my opinion. Anyone that thinks Bill didn't know what was going on doesn't know Lodi. Lodi is a fraction of what it used to be at this point. The TI thing did him in. Kill experienced skydivers all day - nobody will really care. Kill a tandem student with criminal shenanigans - the party is over. Adults being adults right?

Good question. Probably not much short term...but then are we gonna go to the next discipline that accounts for a majority of accidents and remove that from USPA? I dont have any of the marketing data for how new tandems make decisions to walk through the door. CP, wingsuiting, and probably wingsuit base on social media probably play a small part. Swooping isnt going anywhere. USPA in my opinion is smart to try to frame it and work with it. Dont want it at your dz? its simple, dont allow it. Problem fixed.

Sorry, i was referring to experienced up jumpers impacting new students walking through the door. There is zero room for TI's hooking it in for landing.

Its better on average. "We" stopped swooping through traffic...We have nationally recognized teams teaching more advanced canopy control courses...more people are reaching out for this knowledge...at least in my little norcal bubble. All levels of canopy flight are better on average than 15 years ago. How many people are landing canopies over 1.5 WL? More, less? I dont know the answer. Its been a bad 12 months. The 24 to 36 months before that not as bad. Was that covid number of jumps related? Maybe. We are much better canopy pilots today than 15 years ago....you will never eliminate swooping deaths....we either accept that or dont, but its not practical to remove that discipline from USPA, in my opinion. I appreciate the productive discussion and alternate view points. I like the option of DZO's figuring out what they want at their DZ. Dont like swooping...dont allow it. Id also say that a handful of swooping accidents a year does not hurt student participation (tandems or AFF)....if that is the concern on top of keeping our friends around. ETA: I work very hard to organize annual canopy courses for Norcal, and we get 60+ students at these weekend long events almost every non-Covid year for past 6 or 7 years. Even during covid we had great turn out. Teaching and access to this information is helping. Im under no illusion that this will eliminate swooping deaths...but its a net positive for the sport.

Its a bad year...no doubt. And yes, my position and experience in the sport is why I feel the way I do. You cant really separate swooping from USPA. 99% of the "skydive" is the same stuff everyone else does. You need to have same emergency training, know the same regs. Same license structure etc. USPA has a duty to support a discipline that includes all of this. And lets put the rat on the table....that also means that USPA / we (swoopers) accept the dark side of the discipline. Doesnt mean we like it or arent trying to improve it, but we accept it. And thats harsh to say and for some to hear. DZO's like Joe who have to answer for that dark side with no benefit from the upside see it as a detriment to their vision of what they are trying to foster and create. Totally understood and one can choose to not allow swooping at their DZ. But doesnt mean USPA is wrong for supporting it...it just doesnt fit the vision for some.

Again its nuanced. USPA isn't encouraging everyone to go swoop highly loaded canopies. They are providing support to those who choose to do it. I think there is a difference there. I'm am biased. I swoop. I love swooping. I ran a competitive swoop league. I've competed at Nationals. I have an overall bronze medal at Nationals - yay me. I'll never be convinced that banning swooping or limiting its exposure in the public light will limit swooping deaths more than education can. There is no way to prevent people from swooping highly loaded canopies short of banning the manufacturing of those canopies. Support, teach, educate, and provide a path way to do it in a manner that limits the inherent dangers.

Joe, I do appreciate your perspective. I was in daycare when a highly locally publicized (news crews, crowds, etc.) fundraiser demo that my dad organized and participated in ended up with his friend going in with a horseshoe malfunction 200 yards from me and all the cameras. A handful of years later another friend went in at my dad's DZ - in my dads gear - due to a heart attack in free fall (before cypres was used). I was very close to the repercussions my dad had to deal with over these events. I've had close friends die swooping and not so close friends, but people I cared about as humans non the less. I say all this to say I'm not hiding under some rock and oblivious to the dangers of this sport or swooping specifically. I'm passionate about the sport and swooping because its something I've literally been around my whole life. I'm more invested than most "weekend warriors" even though I've never had a financial tie to a DZ. I don't think our organization can split hairs about which disciplines to support and which ones they can't. Support, educate, and do the best you can to minimize death in an inherently dangerous sport. I appreciate your dialogue and 'hear' you. I think the gap in our perspective is probably the financial/ business side to the sport which has never appealed to me. Have an awesome day!

Promoting the events is a form of supporting participation. Sure, its nuanced. But swooping isn't going anywhere. Support it and educate participants is the way to go. Its a better outcome than turning a blind eye and wishing it away. Humans are going to human.

We are all entitled to our opinions. I disagree with you.

USPA doesn't encourage skydivers to fly high wing loading's and to perform high performance landings. If you want to say they support skydivers who choose to fly high performance canopies and who choose to do high performance landings, I would agree with that. Those are two vastly different sentences.

Yeah 2022 was a bad year. I agree its difficult to promote zero deaths but its a good goal. I still believe the amount of increased canopy coaching is beneficial and we have much more canopy awareness than before. We arent swooping through standard traffic patterns anymore and I personally have seen better progression. The performance level of canopies continue to improve. Petras, peregrines, leias, and valkyries to name a few are popular and skill set of pilots overall are getting better. USPA has had a hand in this so that should be recognized. USPA ignoring this sector of the sport would not be beneficial.

Just read april 2023 fatality report for 2022 and looks like 2022 was a bad year for intentional turn fatalities. Years prior look better. Overall my sentiment is we are making progress.

The number of people jumping petra, peregrine and similar canopies is up from say 2013. Look at florida comp and national competitor numbers from same time period. All trending up. If you look at swooping deaths or landing deaths in the same time period its trending down. Not perfect and admittedly some of this is estimating but you can look at landing deaths compiled by USPA. Trending down. Could probably track down canopy sales by talking with mfgs. ETA: Covid could play a factor in swinging the numbers...i.e. number of incidence per jumps for example.

Fair enough. I think the point I was trying to make is that USPA's interest and support of swooping is making a difference for the DZ's that decide to support it. Businesses that don't see it fit in their business model can eliminate it like you have. Not everyone has the bottom line as the driving factor. Everyone wins.

I think a big topic everyone is missing in this thread and the original one is that over the past 10 years, high performance canopy culture has had a massive success in training canopy pilots and improving safety of an inherently dangerous activity. The number of 'ultra' class canopies has increased and deaths are way down. I think USPA has played a critical role in this. @JoeWeber If we want to ban everything that has some increased risk to a DZ business model, lets stop jumpers over 60 from jumping. Stop swooping. Stop basically everything beyond a C license. Its the D license folks that are killing themselves. Older folks who have medical emergencies and improper emergency procedures. Your point about those not happening in front of spectators is noted, and mostly specific to swooping indeed. I grew up in a club DZ culture at home in Verona NY and in Malone NY. My dad was a DZO/rigger/instructor/S&TA and I packed parachutes for a club well before my 16th birthday. I myself am an instructor and former S&TA. I've seen some things. The business side of operating a DZ has certainly complicated things - and I can point to most of the DZ's on the west coast getting rid of their swoop ponds 2010 - 2015, it was bad for business and military contracts. My point is, things are changing in a positive direction - and with the support and guidance of USPA. Separating the landing areas by space or time has had a huge improvement. Making canopy coaching cool has made an improvement. My home DZ has a massive amount of swoopers and the new jumpers respect the process, effort and dedication it takes to get to that level. As DZO you get to do whatever you want at your DZ. I think the guidance and support of USPA for a small but growing sector of canopy piloting is critical. And it continues to make a difference, whether its supported by everyone or not.