Smart Altimeter

7 hop and pops and 1 to 14.000 ft using Smart Alitmeter.

Comparing it in the plane against a couple of Viso’s and my Analog alti.
I found it supprisingly accurate. As did other jumpers.

It stays on, so long as you don’t swipe or bump the side button. It turn off in the plane twice over 7 jumps, but is easy enough to turn on again and picks up the correct altitude. Once I’ve landed the next time I look at it, it’s turned off and back at home screen (watch face) I think that happens when I pick up my canopy, it’s a good thing otherwise it would drain the battery quicker.

Battery 100% - Starting at 7am I had 4 jumps (3 hop & pops to 5000 / 1 to 14.000) before the low battery warning light went on around 6pm. To concerve battery, I did not play with the watch at all between jumps and only turn Alti on shortly before boarding plane setting it to ZERO.

I am using it for canopy work, found out the reason why it’s best worn on the inside of wrist. 😀
Visual in color scene daylight and under canopy excellent. During freefall I have no idea.

TROUBLE SHOOTING
Once on go to Settings and Comectivity - Bluetooth must be off as also WiFi.

We need approved Altimeters at our DZ’s. As I never intended to use it as my only Alti, I can say I’m happy with it and it does a good job.

Dhave

We need approved Altimeters at our DZ’s.

My question, although it is a bit thread-derailing:
Huh? Never heard of any rule like that before. Where? Anyplace else do that? This isn't from the Ban Parachuting Altogether folks??

What's even 'approved'? By a committee? On the market X years? Purpose-built for skydiving? So nobody used Suunto's over the years?

Dhave

7 hop and pops and 1 to 14.000 ft using Smart Alitmeter.

Comparing it in the plane against a couple of Viso’s and my Analog alti.
I found it supprisingly accurate. As did other jumpers.

Thanks for confirming that. I've been using it with Moto 360 Sport and Nixon Mission and it's always spot on.

It's quite surprising that NONE of the jumpers that saw my Moto (on the chest strap pillow) and Nixon (on the left arm) knew that such thing (an Android watch running apps, let alone have a barometer, let alone such a phenomenal one as Nixon, which not only runs at 166Hz sample rate, but has a dedicated "door" that can be opened to give ambient pressure access to the sensor) even exist! (only once, a tandem master at Oceanside, CA, recognized the Mission because he has one, too (but was not aware of its use as an altimeter!), and his wife works for Nixon.

Imho, WearOS smartwatches are much underestimated, these are true nanocomputers with full-blown OS, CPU, RAM, graphics, sensors, multimedia, etc. It's a dream come true for a developer! Why jumpers not only don't use them in skydiving/BASE, they never even heard about them, is totally beyond me.

Moto 360 Sport is only 50 bucks and it has:

- good pressure sensor (25Hz sample rate), with water-resistant membrane that is fully transparent to even quick air pressure changes
- GPS
- accelerometer
- transflective screen that is easily readable in both direct sunlight and in shade/darkness
- CPU that is fast enough to run quite intense smoothing/differentiation algorithms
- bluetooth (listen to altitude via BT earpiece) and wifi connectivity
- app store right on the watch
- and much more

It makes a fantastic secondary altimeter. I've also used it in BASE to quickly gauge the overall flight performance by checking the altitude immediately after opening. These fantastic nanocomputers deserve more widespread use.

Dhave

The Apple watch 3 has a Barometer and Barometric Altimeter now.

Has anyone tried Yuri’s app on the lastest model?
How did it hold up, accuracy, display in sunlight?

Apple products (iphone 6/higher and iwatch) only sample pressure once a second. This pales in comparison to Android WearOS smartwatches that have fantastic sample rates:

Gold: Nixon Mission 166Hz
Silver: LG G Watch R* 90Hz
Bronze: Moto 360 Sport 25Hz

Other WearOS devices with barometer:

LG Watch Sport (10Hz)
LG Watch Urbane
Huawei Watch (20Hz)
Casio Pro Trek Smart
Hugo Boss Touch
MontBlanc Summit
ZTE Quartz

Apple watch (and iphone for that matter) is not suitable for measuring rapidly changing altitude.


---
* needs to have the waterproof membrane be punctured with a needle to let the quick pressure changes in

yuri_base

***The Apple watch 3 has a Barometer and Barometric Altimeter now.

Has anyone tried Yuri’s app on the lastest model?
How did it hold up, accuracy, display in sunlight?

Apple products (iphone 6/higher and iwatch) only sample pressure once a second. This pales in comparison to Android WearOS smartwatches that have fantastic sample rates:

Gold: Nixon Mission 166Hz
Silver: LG G Watch R* 90Hz
Bronze: Moto 360 Sport 25Hz

Other WearOS devices with barometer:

LG Watch Sport (10Hz)
LG Watch Urbane
Huawei Watch (20Hz)
Casio Pro Trek Smart
Hugo Boss Touch
MontBlanc Summit
ZTE Quartz

Apple watch (and iphone for that matter) is not suitable for measuring rapidly changing altitude.


---
* needs to have the waterproof membrane be punctured with a needle to let the quick pressure changes in

I was thinking of getting one as a secondary altimeter since I can find a few on your list for $60 online used. At the moment it looks like the LG G R is the same price as the Moto 360 online. Which of the two would you recommend and how do you puncture the waterproof membrane that you're talking about?

Someone else mentioned that his watch would turn off in the airplane and the battery did not last all day. Have you had those issues with your Moto 360? I am curious as to how accurate these watches are in freefall since that's what I'd be using them for.

Westerly

At the moment it looks like the LG G R is the same price as the Moto 360 online. Which of the two would you recommend and how do you puncture the waterproof membrane that you're talking about?

Someone else mentioned that his watch would turn off in the airplane and the battery did not last all day. Have you had those issues with your Moto 360? I am curious as to how accurate these watches are in freefall since that's what I'd be using them for.

I would recommend Moto, since the R is not easily readable in direct sun. With the R, you take the plastic back off (4 screws), then you'll see the membrane on it covering the breather hole.

Yes, if you run the app continuously, it won't last a day since the always-on screen consumes a lot of juice. It will last several jumps if quitting the app between the jumps. I only fly wingsuit, so can't say about belly or freeflying, but my watches show pretty much the same altitude as Viso.

yuri_base

***At the moment it looks like the LG G R is the same price as the Moto 360 online. Which of the two would you recommend and how do you puncture the waterproof membrane that you're talking about?

Someone else mentioned that his watch would turn off in the airplane and the battery did not last all day. Have you had those issues with your Moto 360? I am curious as to how accurate these watches are in freefall since that's what I'd be using them for.

I would recommend Moto, since the R is not easily readable in direct sun. With the R, you take the plastic back off (4 screws), then you'll see the membrane on it covering the breather hole.

Yes, if you run the app continuously, it won't last a day since the always-on screen consumes a lot of juice. It will last several jumps if quitting the app between the jumps. I only fly wingsuit, so can't say about belly or freeflying, but my watches show pretty much the same altitude as Viso.

How do you like your Mission? Is the screen visible in the sun? How's the battery life?

is it possible to use this with just the phone in the suit pocket?

edit: for the audible feedback

Westerly

How do you like your Mission? Is the screen visible in the sun? How's the battery life?

I like my Nixon Mission a lot, it's a very chunky watch, like a little tank. It has this unique feature - mic lock (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa43HDmKpQc) - that we might never see again in a smartwatch, since it's getting a lot of critique from regular users - "why do I need to open this little door with a lever to just say 'ok google'?" But for us, it's god-sent, since it gives the barometer unblocked access to ambient pressure. And it measures pressure every 6 milliseconds!

The screen is not so well visible in the sun. It's ok under canopy when wearing it on the arm, since it's not reflecting the sky so much. Battery life is good enough; about 40 hours with watchface always on. When using as an altimeter, it's enough for a jump day.

Mission has a weak spot: charging pins, they rust. I had to send mine for warranty repair. Now I try to limit the exposure to sweat by wiping the pins more often or by wearing it over a sweatband.

davenuk

is it possible to use this with just the phone in the suit pocket?

edit: for the audible feedback

Yes, if the phone's barometer is fast enough (at least 25Hz like Moto 360). I have a Samsung Note 4 with a barometer, but it has a disappointing 6Hz sample rate. Iphone is 1Hz, totally useless.


PS. As per reports above, Google Nexus 4 has a 30Hz barometer.

yuri_base

***How do you like your Mission? Is the screen visible in the sun? How's the battery life?

I like my Nixon Mission a lot, it's a very chunky watch, like a little tank. It has this unique feature - mic lock (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wa43HDmKpQc) - that we might never see again in a smartwatch, since it's getting a lot of critique from regular users - "why do I need to open this little door with a lever to just say 'ok google'?" But for us, it's god-sent, since it gives the barometer unblocked access to ambient pressure. And it measures pressure every 6 milliseconds!

The screen is not so well visible in the sun. It's ok under canopy when wearing it on the arm, since it's not reflecting the sky so much. Battery life is good enough; about 40 hours with watchface always on. When using as an altimeter, it's enough for a jump day.

Mission has a weak spot: charging pins, they rust. I had to send mine for warranty repair. Now I try to limit the exposure to sweat by wiping the pins more often or by wearing it over a sweatband.

I wonder how visible the screen would be when wingsuiting. I plan to pick up one of these watches to mount on my mud flap when wingsuiting and I am curious how the Nixon would be for that. I found one locally for $100 on Facebook so I figured I might try one out.

Considering how powerful these watches are, it seems like they could serve as a replacement for a Flysight. I would think a modern watch is much more powerful than the hardware components in a Flysight. So the main piece left would be the software.

Did you end up writing a pro version of the software that would allow for logging, charting, ect of altitude and speed?

Quote

I wonder how visible the screen would be when wingsuiting. I plan to pick up one of these watches to mount on my mud flap when wingsuiting and I am curious how the Nixon would be for that. I found one locally for $100 on Facebook so I figured I might try one out.

Considering how powerful these watches are, it seems like they could serve as a replacement for a Flysight. I would think a modern watch is much more powerful than the hardware components in a Flysight. So the main piece left would be the software.

Did you end up writing a pro version of the software that would allow for logging, charting, ect of altitude and speed?

It should be visible fine on a mudflap since it won't be facing the sky. Unless the sun is low and you're flying towards it. $100 for Mission is a good deal.

Yes, it's much more powerful and capable than Flysight, but the GPS update rate is only 1Hz (vs. 5Hz). For wingsuit performance measurements, I have an app called L/D Vario, but the watch (or phone) needs to be mounted on a vane like so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_iPSSV-5qY

No, I didn't write the pro version. There's no wide interest in all this, so I basically created the basic functionality for myself and called it a day. (I do use it on every jump, and it does what I need.)

yuri_base

Quote

I wonder how visible the screen would be when wingsuiting. I plan to pick up one of these watches to mount on my mud flap when wingsuiting and I am curious how the Nixon would be for that. I found one locally for $100 on Facebook so I figured I might try one out.

Considering how powerful these watches are, it seems like they could serve as a replacement for a Flysight. I would think a modern watch is much more powerful than the hardware components in a Flysight. So the main piece left would be the software.

Did you end up writing a pro version of the software that would allow for logging, charting, ect of altitude and speed?

It should be visible fine on a mudflap since it won't be facing the sky. Unless the sun is low and you're flying towards it. $100 for Mission is a good deal.

Yes, it's much more powerful and capable than Flysight, but the GPS update rate is only 1Hz (vs. 5Hz). For wingsuit performance measurements, I have an app called L/D Vario, but the watch (or phone) needs to be mounted on a vane like so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_iPSSV-5qY

No, I didn't write the pro version. There's no wide interest in all this, so I basically created the basic functionality for myself and called it a day. (I do use it on every jump, and it does what I need.)

Psyched to try your app, I ended up picking up the Nixon Mission today but I dont see your app in the Play Store. I searched for Smart Altimeter on the watch and there are no apps named that in the store. When I search for the app on the Internet on my phone, I am able to find it in the Google Play Store. I signed into my Google account and when I try to add it to my device it says "this item is not compatible with your device." I looked up L/D Vario and I get the same incompatibility error message on my phone and computer. I have the latest version of the watch software OS installed (Android 8.0.0). When I go to settings, the watch says I have the latest version of the OS.

A screenshot is attached.

Westerly

Psyched to try your app, I ended up picking up the Nixon Mission today but I dont see your app in the Play Store. I searched for Smart Altimeter on the watch and there are no apps named that in the store. When I search for the app on the Internet on my phone, I am able to find it in the Google Play Store. I signed into my Google account and when I try to add it to my device it says "this item is not compatible with your device." I looked up L/D Vario and I get the same incompatibility error message on my phone and computer. I have the latest version of the watch software OS installed (Android 8.0.0). When I go to settings, the watch says I have the latest version of the OS.

A screenshot is attached.

My Wear apps (Smart Altimeter, L/D Vario, Rockdrop Pro) are legacy apps, they were built for Android Wear 1.5 2-3 years ago and not updated since. With AW 1.5, you need to have the watch paired to an Android phone, then you install the Android version of the app from the Play Store, it piggybacks the Wear app and pushes it to the watch when they are paired and connected (and if you have WearOS 2.0 already on the watch, then you find the app in "Apps on your phone" section of the watch'es own Play Store). When Google introduced AW 2.0, they added support for iPhone, but to install any apps, you need to have AW 2.0 or later on the watch and the apps need to target 2.0. With iPhone, there seems to be no way to install legacy 1.5 apps on Android smartwatches.


PS. Fortunately, unlike with iphone, one doesn't have to pay a fortune to have an Android phone with a Play Store on it; walk into any Walmart and buy any prepaid phone (for example, I have a Motorola E4 for 40 bucks and Huawei Ascend XT2 for 50 bucks for various utility uses, like maps, browser, music, etc.). You don't need to enroll in any phone service; just don't insert the included SIM and skip everything related to that during the initialization. Then login to Play Store with your gmail account and boom! - you can install any apps you want, as well as pair Android smartwatches to this phone.

yuri_base

***Psyched to try your app, I ended up picking up the Nixon Mission today but I dont see your app in the Play Store. I searched for Smart Altimeter on the watch and there are no apps named that in the store. When I search for the app on the Internet on my phone, I am able to find it in the Google Play Store. I signed into my Google account and when I try to add it to my device it says "this item is not compatible with your device." I looked up L/D Vario and I get the same incompatibility error message on my phone and computer. I have the latest version of the watch software OS installed (Android 8.0.0). When I go to settings, the watch says I have the latest version of the OS.

A screenshot is attached.

My Wear apps (Smart Altimeter, L/D Vario, Rockdrop Pro) are legacy apps, they were built for Android Wear 1.5 2-3 years ago and not updated since. With AW 1.5, you need to have the watch paired to an Android phone, then you install the Android version of the app from the Play Store, it piggybacks the Wear app and pushes it to the watch when they are paired and connected (and if you have WearOS 2.0 already on the watch, then you find the app in "Apps on your phone" section of the watch'es own Play Store). When Google introduced AW 2.0, they added support for iPhone, but to install any apps, you need to have AW 2.0 or later on the watch and the apps need to target 2.0. With iPhone, there seems to be no way to install legacy 1.5 apps on Android smartwatches.


PS. Fortunately, unlike with iphone, one doesn't have to pay a fortune to have an Android phone with a Play Store on it; walk into any Walmart and buy any prepaid phone (for example, I have a Motorola E4 for 40 bucks and Huawei Ascend XT2 for 50 bucks for various utility uses, like maps, browser, music, etc.). You don't need to enroll in any phone service; just don't insert the included SIM and skip everything related to that during the initialization. Then login to Play Store with your gmail account and boom! - you can install any apps you want, as well as pair Android smartwatches to this phone.

Alright, I got an Android phone and I was able to get it up and running on the watch. A few questions. Does the app use the GPS for anything? I thought about leaving the watch in airplane mode at all times to conserve battery, but that would disable the GPS. I noticed the sensor info screen seems off sometimes. I normally get 167 Hz. refresh rate for the barometer, but I've seen it go as high as 1000 Hz and a few numbers in between.

What is the lag of the altimeter readings? I took the watch up and down in the elevator and it seems to react reasonably quickly to changes in the elevator, but the speed function seems to lag behind. When the elevator is at a complete stop the MPH speed is still counting down to zero. It seems like the speed maybe averages a few hundred samples to get the number I see on the screen?

It's a cool app. It would be nice if it was developed more including different skins for the altimeter and different options as well as customization options for the sample averaging. I'd pay money for a more advanced version of the app.

ah, my samsung s8 reports 10Hz.

i'll try it anyway :)

edit: why does it appear to only operate when the phone is at certain angles? is that going to affect it in the pocket?

thanks

Westerly

Alright, I got an Android phone and I was able to get it up and running on the watch. A few questions. Does the app use the GPS for anything? I thought about leaving the watch in airplane mode at all times to conserve battery, but that would disable the GPS. I noticed the sensor info screen seems off sometimes. I normally get 167 Hz. refresh rate for the barometer, but I've seen it go as high as 1000 Hz and a few numbers in between.

What is the lag of the altimeter readings? I took the watch up and down in the elevator and it seems to react reasonably quickly to changes in the elevator, but the speed function seems to lag behind. When the elevator is at a complete stop the MPH speed is still counting down to zero. It seems like the speed maybe averages a few hundred samples to get the number I see on the screen?

It's a cool app. It would be nice if it was developed more including different skins for the altimeter and different options as well as customization options for the sample averaging. I'd pay money for a more advanced version of the app.

It doesn't use GPS if the device has a barometer; it only falls back to GPS if there's no barometer detected.

There's a bug in the app that if you don't quit it properly, the measured sample rate would multiply. To quit any Wear app, swipe to the right; pressing the home button only puts it in the background (Smart Altimeter continues to run in the background and drains battery to keep the smoothing/differentiating algorithms continuously fed with current samples).

The lag in smoothed altitude is 12 samples, or 12/166s - less than 0.1s. The lag from real time to the unprocessed sample is unknown. Yes, the speed lags more than altitude because of the combo smoothing/differentiating algorithm I use; without it, the derivative of a noisy variable will be super noisy.

davenuk

edit: why does it appear to only operate when the phone is at certain angles? is that going to affect it in the pocket?

Which one? L/D Vario? It meant to be used on a vane, not in pocket, like so:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Oj8SXvs4GU

davenuk

ah, my samsung s8 reports 10Hz.

The lag would be 1.2s (12 samples) - too much. Also, is S8 waterproof? If yes, it might not transmit fast pressure changes to the sensor through its waterproof membrane fast enough.

yuri_base

***Alright, I got an Android phone and I was able to get it up and running on the watch. A few questions. Does the app use the GPS for anything? I thought about leaving the watch in airplane mode at all times to conserve battery, but that would disable the GPS. I noticed the sensor info screen seems off sometimes. I normally get 167 Hz. refresh rate for the barometer, but I've seen it go as high as 1000 Hz and a few numbers in between.

What is the lag of the altimeter readings? I took the watch up and down in the elevator and it seems to react reasonably quickly to changes in the elevator, but the speed function seems to lag behind. When the elevator is at a complete stop the MPH speed is still counting down to zero. It seems like the speed maybe averages a few hundred samples to get the number I see on the screen?

It's a cool app. It would be nice if it was developed more including different skins for the altimeter and different options as well as customization options for the sample averaging. I'd pay money for a more advanced version of the app.

It doesn't use GPS if the device has a barometer; it only falls back to GPS if there's no barometer detected.

There's a bug in the app that if you don't quit it properly, the measured sample rate would multiply. To quit any Wear app, swipe to the right; pressing the home button only puts it in the background (Smart Altimeter continues to run in the background and drains battery to keep the smoothing/differentiating algorithms continuously fed with current samples).

The lag in smoothed altitude is 12 samples, or 12/166s - less than 0.1s. The lag from real time to the unprocessed sample is unknown. Yes, the speed lags more than altitude because of the combo smoothing/differentiating algorithm I use; without it, the derivative of a noisy variable will be super noisy.I am not sure swiping to the right actually closes the program. I dont think it does because when I swipe to the right and then select the app, it opens in less than two seconds and the refresh rate multiplication bug sill exists. However, if I go into settings and force quit the app, going back into the app takes about 6 seconds and the bug with the refresh rate is gone.

Westerly

I am not sure swiping to the right actually closes the program. I dont think it does because when I swipe to the right and then select the app, it opens in less than two seconds and the refresh rate multiplication bug sill exists. However, if I go into settings and force quit the app, going back into the app takes about 6 seconds and the bug with the refresh rate is gone.

Yes, looks like Google changed the behavior again in one of the latest updates. It used to be different before, swiping right was a way to actually quit the app.

For what it's worth, installed on Note 8. I do not have WatchOS-based watch, my Samsung Gear S3 runs Tizen.

Phone reports this:
Accelerometer: 416hz
Barometer: 30hz
GPS: [measuring...]

Any interest in porting this to Tizen?

"Accelerometer: 416hz" - WOW!
"Barometer: 30hz" - decent!
"GPS: [measuring...]" - if you're still interested in GPS sample frequency, make sure to enable GPS and give the app permission to use it; however, the app does not use GPS per se for altitude measurements if barometer is present

"Any interest in porting this to Tizen?" - absolutely no. I've had a Samsung Gear S smartwatch running Tizen and tried to develop for it. Tizen is total garbage, full of security holes and poor programming (search the web) and where most "apps" are actually web browser pages running Javascript. Yikes!

yuri_base

"Any interest in porting this to Tizen?" - absolutely no. I've had a Samsung Gear S smartwatch running Tizen and tried to develop for it. Tizen is total garbage, full of security holes and poor programming (search the web) and where most "apps" are actually web browser pages running Javascript. Yikes!

At my previous job, I spent over a year developing a data collection platform for Tizen, which would stream sensor data to an Android phone. Everything you said is pretty much spot on.

To be fair, Gear S2 and S3 added native app support, so you can implement your stuff in C or C++, which I had to do to get access to the more advanced power and sensor APIs. It was still a nightmare though, especially with each firmware update breaking different APIs. So glad that work is behind me now.

yuri_base

"Any interest in porting this to Tizen?" - absolutely no. I've had a Samsung Gear S smartwatch running Tizen and tried to develop for it. Tizen is total garbage, full of security holes and poor programming (search the web) and where most "apps" are actually web browser pages running Javascript. Yikes!

Unfortunately they are only game in town if you want a smartwatch with good design, battery that lasts 4 days, and ergonomic menus. :(