No Pilot Chute Belly Reserves

What was the procedure for throwing an old no pilot chute belly reserve? Any old timers around who were trained on these, or better yet deployed one? I have a distant and fuzzy memory of someone saying that skydivers during that time were trained to throw the reserve into the spin, but I may not be remembering accurately. 

Partial malfunction:  Hold the container flaps together with left hand, pull ripcord with right hand.  Throw ripcord away.  Peel back flaps.  Take canopy and big wad of lines, throw down and in the direction of spin.  For a really slow malfunction, might have to shake the reserve a couple time before it's interested in opening.  I've done this.

Total malfunction:  Airborne tuck/fetal position. Pull ripcord. Assist canopy into wind if necessary.  I've never done this.

1 hour ago, mark said:

I've never done this.

Hi Mark,

I have, twice.  It hurts.

Jerry Baumchen

Thanks Mark. Believe it or not, the paraglider/paramotor crowd still use remarkably similar systems. YouTube videos  have me thinking there is room for improvement in both training and technology. It looks like people are having trouble throwing into clean air. It seems like there are more main/reserve entanglements than there should be. 

When I started to teach I thought I should go try the reserve toss deal. I took a T10 tied one toggle down to put me in a spin (well as good as possible with a T10). Grabbed the reserve and threw it down and into the spin. It ate me. I had reserve all over the place.  After that we changed to teaching the student to cut away. 

I even tried the toss thing on another jump with the canopy in a paper grocery bag. Better but it still sucked.

That’s pretty consistent with what I’ve seen on some videos. So what is the rationale behind throwing into the spin? Down or to the side makes more sense than throwing into the main, but throwing into the spin seems counterintuitive. 

Such mal scenarios are before my time, but I thought the "into the spin" throw was supposed to be not 'directly pissing into the wind', but just 'somewhat into the spin direction'. Supposedly so it had more time to extend to full line deployment and start to fill, before it started to wrap its lines around you due to the spin. So if in a left turning spin, try to toss 45 degrees left, something like that, rather than say trying for 90 degrees left.

(Yeah the whole canopy-first deployment method sucks. It should be staged lines first, closer to what paraglider reserves do, or indeed regular skydiving reserves except without a pilot chute. Canopy is bagged, toss it using a handle on the bag, lines pay out from the bag, and once at line extension, the bag pops open.)

After doing ground tests on hand deploying reserves like this, we concluded that the mess was caused by the packing method. Pulling the reserve out, with one hand on the apex and one on the periphery resulted the guts dropping out as soon as the reserve was extracted from the container. We changed to a roll pack, which involved rolling the reserve up from the apex. (rather like a toilet roll)

 This resulted in a much more solid handful of canopy which was much easier to extract and throw, without it turning into a mess. 

 Never had to do it in anger, as we had just turned to cutaways and pilot shot reserves. Glad we had the new fangled system. Hand deploy was only any good under cheapos anyway, PCs tended to spin up a lot faster than a C9.

I see, that explains the logic behind throwing into the spin. I’m thinking with my paramotor reserve the plan will be throw hard to the side and behind, not up or down, into the spin.

These systems are bagged with very loose line stows that are intended to pay out quickly. So they are a least somewhat staged. I still wonder if a pilot chute would improve reliability. Maybe not. 

As it stands now, these reserves are far from reliable. The best thing is to avoid scenarios that are likely to result in a reserve throw. Guys who engage in the riskiest of behavior often carry 2 throw out reserves. 

I appreciate all the input.

4 hours ago, pchapman said:

Such mal scenarios are before my time

Hi Peter,

But, not before my time.  I do have to say that I have never deployed a chest pack under an open canopy.

Back in the 60's I would occasionally go up to Abottsford to jump.  Bill Hardman was the DZ Mgr.  They did some testing & concluded that 'throwing it into the spin' simply did not work.  So they changed to a 'pull & punch' system.  You merely pulled the gut pack ripcord & then punched the canopy with the same hand to get things moving.

I have no idea on how many times this was used or the outcomes.

Jerry Baumchen

I have two reserve rides. Both were belly mount without pilot chute. One after having a floating ripcord after a five second delay. The second after cutting away a high speed mal with DOUBLE SHOT Capewells. There was no way I was going to try to hand deploy into the mess over my head!

I have had three belly mount reserve rides.  The first one was under my 5TU.  It was a practise situation and I remember taking hold of the reserve and throwing it out.  Throwing it into the spin sounds like the method I was trained under, but in this instance there was no spin as I was under a good canopy.  It inflated ok and I landed under both canopies.  The second one was under my  PC and there was a pilot chute.  I did not have that much experience at the time and I was unable to get rid of my main probably due to it being stubbornly caught in my burble, so I fired off my reserve.  It went up ok and I landed under both.  The third was on a style jump when after finishing my set I had a total (due to a small rigging mishap  =)) and had to fire my reserve.  I remember I rolled sideways before pulling the chest mount so there would be less stress on my spine.  It was a solid opening but I remember being a little surprised that it was as soft as it was.

Quote

I have had three belly mount reserve rides.  The first one was under my 5TU.  It was a practise situation and I remember taking hold of the reserve and throwing it out.  Throwing it into the spin sounds like the method I was trained under, but in this instance there was no spin as I was under a good canopy.  It inflated ok and I landed under both canopies.  

In the movie <I>The Gypsy Moths</I>, one guy does a sequence where he opens four or five chutes at the same time. He uses the technique described above. 

There is this guy in... Guatemala? or some place down there. I keep running into him over the years. He has a fetish for old gear and is out to jump every thing ever made. He borrowed my paradatctals to jump them. He's also trying to recreate all the old stunts and did that one a few years ago. 

Lee

7 hours ago, flyhi said:

one guy does a sequence where he opens four or five chutes at the same time. 

Hi flyhi,

That would have been the late Garth Taggart.  He was a real nice guy.

Jerry Baumchen

I only had one "no pilot chute belly mount" reserve deployment.  Round 28 foot C-9 'mally'.

Held my hand on the pack, pulled the handle, grabbed the big lump of a 24 foot reserve in both hands and threw it down as I had been taught. No spin on the main.  It inflated perfectly and I landed with both.  No big deal.  Uneventful actually.

My first malfunction was jump # 8 on a 28 foot double L.  Hand deployed the 24 foot unmodified  reserve, everything worked and landed on the runway with 2 canopies.

Second malfunction was about jump 50 - 55 on a 28 foot 7TU at night.  Hand deployed the 24 foot tri-vent reserve then cut away one riser on the main.  Steered the reserve into the peas with the main trailing behind.

Third malfunction about jump 400, dug out my old 28 foot 7TU, jumped it and had a Mae West.  This time I had a 24 foot tri-vent reserve with a pilot chute.  I cut away with 2 shot capewells.  That was the last time I jumped a cheapo.

On 8/20/2019 at 4:35 PM, mark said:

Partial malfunction:  Hold the container flaps together with left hand, pull ripcord with right hand.  Throw ripcord away.  Peel back flaps.  Take canopy and big wad of lines, throw down and in the direction of spin.  For a really slow malfunction, might have to shake the reserve a couple time before it's interested in opening.  I've done this.

Total malfunction:  Airborne tuck/fetal position. Pull ripcord. Assist canopy into wind if necessary.  I've never done this.

We were taught also for third scenario,...

High speed partial malfunction : Locate and grab ripcord with right hand, cover your face and eyes with left hand while looking trough open fingers of left hand, and then pull ripcord. This way lines would burn your hand not your face. I've never done this.

I've had one slow-speed  belly-mount reserve deployment.  Jump #11.  No pilot chute on reserve.  Lake Elsinore, 1978.

Classic Mae West!

I did exactly what the the EPs called for which was pull the ripcord, toss or stow it (I was told to toss as a student), reach into the reserve and toss in the direction of the spin.  Perfect deployment of reserve, which of course took enough pressure off Mae's bra to clear the line, so I had two perfectly good canopies above me.  

Which left me at the mercy of the wind.  One case where two may be worse than one.  haha!    I landed in the muddy water  stretched out virtually on my back due to the two canopies.  Further into the water and it could have been a mess (yes, I had a flotation device), or out on the hard pack would have hurt like a ....