Why jump at night?

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That was a very simple explenation.
Why does our have to be so hard?

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Darkness is a state that is considered to exist during the time between sunset and sunrise when the due to reduced daylight a prominent unlit objects are not clearly visible on distance of 8 km

Clear as mud huh?

Sunset is when the sun itself is not directly visible when it falls below the horizon.

Now, to confuse things....there's nothing in there that says what altitude the observer has to be at the time of observance.

Yes and that is also one of the things with sunset jumps.
The sun can be "up" while you are in freefall and under canopy, but as you make your landningpattern it could be below the horizon.

The DZ that I jump at does not have a tower, and has to communicate with a tower 30-40 km south.
Even if a prominent unlit objects was clearly visible on distance of 8 km the tower called the DZ and said it was a nightjump and we did not ask for a NOTAM for that jump.

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The question is how or why is that skill a necessary requirement for someone who wants a TI or Pro rating but has no intention of ever doing night jumps.

In my line of work there are a lot of literal tasks and projects that need to be done that don't at face value have much to do with things that your team mates need to do, but when you deconstruct the skills and analytical tools an individual needs to have in order to perform the required work, they are the same.

The details of the execution may be different, but it's just taking the same skill set and implementing it in a different way.

To me, the real question is when you deconstruct a skydive and you look at all the knowledge, judgement, and execution requirements, a night jump has many of the same requirements as any other "higher risk" jump.

A "higher risk" jump to me is anything that isn't a jump under normal, optimal conditions. Whether it is a demo jump, a night jump, or a tandem, you are going to need to have proficiency in all the core competencies that when you put them together equals a jump.

So I guess the question I would have is, if you don't like the idea of a night jump, what other mechanism would you like to see put in place to force a jumper to demonstrate that they possess all the required tools?

The more I think about it the more a night jump seems like the perfect way to really test that, simply because it hits upon all of these core competencies at such little cost. No specialized gear is needed (other than a strobe and some chem lights). Plus it is a good initial requirement because later on if you want to specialize in demo jumps or tandem jumps, there are additional tests and whatnot.

But a night jump seems like a good way to cover the pre-reqs, which is that you can get just yourself down safely in conditions that are not optimal. If you can find a better way to have a jumper demonstrate that that isn't a night jump, cool.

But to say that a night jump doesn't have *any* relevance seems weird to me, unless you're only evaluating a night jump as some kind of super unique skill that doesn't have relevance to skydiving in any other context.

This aint about me bro! I've done my night jumps to check the box and generally dont bother anymore. Not saying I wont - not saying I will. I'm just asking why is it a requirement? Specifically, to get ratings that have nothing to do with night jumping. I still haven't seen a good answer yet.

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The awards! Yes, indeed. That got skipped in this thread...good catch.

Refer to post #43.
I don't believe a D license should be required for the 1000 jump wings. Jumpnumbers are not related to skillsets.

I do think that a D should be at least somewhat more difficult. I do think that D licenses should include night jumps.

and night wingsuit jumps....damn they're fun. Get a few daytime WS skills under your belt first, and give it a whirl.

Well, guy. Besides missing the point entirely, all the questions you asked have been answered multiple times already.

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Refer to post #43.
I don't believe a D license should be required for the 1000 jump wings. Jumpnumbers are not related to skillsets.

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Achievement Awards
SIM 8-2 C:

C. G eneral requirements
1. To be eligible for any of these awards a person must:
a. have completed the required number of freefall
skydives or accumulated the required amount of
freefall time
b. have made each jump being presented as
qualification in compliance with the USPA BSRs
c. be a current USPA member at the time of application
for the award
d. be the holder of a current USPA D license or its
accepted foreign equivalent
e. have no record of a BSR violation on file with
USPA
f. have met the requirements of the previous award

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and night wingsuit jumps....damn they're fun. Get a few daytime WS skills under your belt first, and give it a whirl.

Not my cup of tea but I respect you guys that do.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

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Refer to post #43.
I don't believe a D license should be required for the 1000 jump wings. Jumpnumbers are not related to skillsets.

Quote

Achievement Awards
SIM 8-2 C:

C. G eneral requirements
1. To be eligible for any of these awards a person must:
a. have completed the required number of freefall
skydives or accumulated the required amount of
freefall time
b. have made each jump being presented as
qualification in compliance with the USPA BSRs
c. be a current USPA member at the time of application
for the award
d. be the holder of a current USPA D license or its
accepted foreign equivalent
e. have no record of a BSR violation on file with
USPA
f. have met the requirements of the previous award

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and night wingsuit jumps....damn they're fun. Get a few daytime WS skills under your belt first, and give it a whirl.

Not my cup of tea but I respect you guys that do.

I'm not sure you understood what I meant in my first post, so I'll separate it out.

If I were king and convincer of the BOD, I'd do away with the D license requirement to receive wings.
Changing the D license requirements however, would be something I'd want to add to, not remove from.

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Well once the collective does away with the night jump requirement, they will have a tough time finding the experience they need for the conduct of a night jump ad out lined in SIM 2012-13 6-4 B 2 a and b

Oh well.

Matt

Sorry, DSE...I misread. You were clear, I was foggy.
Comes with age, I guess.
Imagine that!

Photoshop it.

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I think the "D" licensee is "Expert" (not Master)...

My D license says Master, doesn't make it true.

Always great to lower the bar, if you don't want to do night jumps, water jumps, CRW or anything else, then you don't need the license. Just shut up and jump, a piece of paper will not help your skill level.

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But a night jump seems like a good way to cover the pre-reqs, which is that you can get just yourself down safely in conditions that are not optimal. If you can find a better way to have a jumper demonstrate that that isn't a night jump, cool.

I see the point of demonstrating some kind of skill.

The problem is, it doesn't say that one has to organize a night jump, or brief a night jump to others, or demonstrate much skill other than being able to stick duct tape & glowsticks to oneself and not die before sending in one's paperwork.

To demonstrate landing in suboptimal conditions, one can just choose to jump on a stormy day just before sunset, accept a bad spot, pull low, and hook it hard over rough terrain for an outlanding. Survive that and the jumper will be issued a "D", D is for being a Dick...

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or demonstrate much skill other than being able to stick duct tape & glowsticks to oneself and not die before sending in one's paperwork.

That I can totally get behind. It would be cool to make the skills demonstration part harder. Maybe make a "perform three of the five actions" thing where night jumps is just one of them.

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Hi Diesel,
Why?? If you have to ask, don't bother!! 'Made a bunch of night jumps, good times. 'Gotta say, one in particular was "The One!!" 'Freak Brothers '84, Sat night 16 way, 2 points, "You Shoulda Been There!!" Clear night, moon, at the top floor looking down at about 9 or 10 grand was a whisp of a veil of a cloud if you could call it that. The only way you knew it was there was the light of the moon reflecting off the top, but you could clearly see thru it!! 15 other jumpers besides myself and Mike Seismore the potogralpher plus the pilot saw it. All I can say is Why Jump at night?? Glad I did. If you don't want to then don't. You won't be missed.

I have a couple hundred night jumps, but the MOST memorable was the midnight new years eve jump @ Elsinore...


Left the door with 10 seconds left in the year and fell into the next one, ya could see fireworks going in every city within 50 miles.

I land landed and my GF at the time, nailed me with a spraying bottle of champagne...the rig smelled like a cheap drunk for 6 months!

Because it is fun... and special... I have a whole bunch of night jumps... all of them were memorable.

OK. I haven;t seen anywhere in the USPA rules, regulation, recommendations, guidelines, literature or anywhere else where D = Expert


Well, I'm looking at my D license right now, issued by the PCA, (that's Parachute Club of America for you newbies) in 1962 that says "EXPERT (Class D)"

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Well, I'm looking at my D license right now, issued by the PCA,

Well, you're obviously older than I am.

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Just before sunset - yes, and that will teach you how to land with the sun in your eyes and/or with lower, flatter lighting.

I'm poorly qualified to judge on this because I've never made a night jump, but I'm going to stick my oar in anyway.

From what I understand conditions on a full night jump, most especially the type of 'light', are quite different from those you get on a load that's just gone up a little too late in the day. So we're already compromised on validity.

When 617 Squadron were training for the (night-time) Dambusters raid, much of their flying was actually done during the day with blue celluloid over the aircraft windows and the crew wearing amber-tinted goggles. I think this was to simulate moonlit conditions, but presumably other colours could be used depending on the requirement.

This might be a silly suggestion, but if we want to give jumpers experience of reduced visibility or unusual light can we not just have them wear very heavily tinted goggles? Obviously we're talking about an exceptionally heavy tint, but they'd be easy enough to make.

This seems a less risky, less complex solution to me: no need for the extra organisation or preparation that goes with night loads; full visibility for DZ staff on the ground so that they can watch jumpers open and find them should they land out; and if a jumper feels endangered under canopy, then the goggles come off. No goggles, no licence, of course, and there's the first problem - proving that you actually did the whole thing 'blind'.

Any thoughts?

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You say that like having a D license means you are an "expert".
Good joke, John!

No joke. Per the USPA, the official governing body in this country, that makes you an "expert".

Where does USPA say that?

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The awards! Yes, indeed. That got skipped in this thread...good catch.

Refer to post #43.
I don't believe a D license should be required for the 1000 jump wings. Jumpnumbers are not related to skillsets.

I do think that a D should be at least somewhat more difficult. I do think that D licenses should include night jumps.

and night wingsuit jumps....damn they're fun. Get a few daytime WS skills under your belt first, and give it a whirl.

And night CRW.

And be on a completed 100 way.

And have competed at nationals...

The possibilities of arbitrary criteria are endless.

That's pounding a nail with a sledge
hammer...

Just pick a no wind full moon night and go do a solo, get yer knees in the breeze and see that it's not rocket surgery. After becoming comfortable add more people for more fun!

Having the skill in your 'toolbox' is a good thing, even IF you never plan to make a night jump who knows what the future holds. My first night jump was not planned, it was while returning to the dz following a demo. Unlighted grass strip, full tanks and cargo and jumpers on board...pilot wanted to lighten the load so we got out. I think I had about 50 jumps and I was on a PC. My 'training' jump was the real thing, the next time I did one it was easy...I was prepared.

Sure there are different dangers involved with night jumps...dealing with them helps give you confidence with other elements of skydiving.


Some of these things it just makes no sense to 'short-cut', water training in a pool...all that does is prepare you if you land in a swimming pool and someone throws a canopy on your head.

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You say that like having a D license means you are an "expert".
Good joke, John!

No joke. Per the USPA, the official governing body in this country, that makes you an "expert".

Where does USPA say that?

It says it right on my D license, issued by the USPA...my name on it and everything...yup, says right there ~ I'm an Expert!

You n00bs with the D that 'only' says Master...well, the USPA must have known something huh?

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The awards! Yes, indeed. That got skipped in this thread...good catch.

Refer to post #43.
I don't believe a D license should be required for the 1000 jump wings. Jumpnumbers are not related to skillsets.

I do think that a D should be at least somewhat more difficult. I do think that D licenses should include night jumps.

and night wingsuit jumps....damn they're fun. Get a few daytime WS skills under your belt first, and give it a whirl.

And night CRW.

And be on a completed 100 way.

And have competed at nationals...

The possibilities of arbitrary criteria are endless.

Wingsuit night jumps, night CRW, competed at Nationals, and being on a completed 100 way are all electives, determined and planned/trained in advance.

landing well after sunset may not be.
Why did you take my post out of context and make it appear as though I'm recommending night wingsuit jumps for a D license?