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Quote...Now, as mentioned in the past, there are no USPA police to enforce these. DZO's enforce them because 1) they generally make sense and will reduce injuries/fatalities/lawsuits, 2) they are generally inclined to start with USPA rules as a basis for their own (just plain easier) and 3) it makes it easier on jumpers that there's a consistent set of rules throughout the country.
Please address this:
USPA Group Membership requires a signed pledge to follow FAA and USPA rules and regulations. DZOs sign the pledge but are not requied to follow "recommendations".
True/False?
My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239
JumpRu 14
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Danny's 'problem' was not one of education. It was one of ego. You gotta a BSR for egos?
I think this is rhetorical question
billvon 2,822
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>BSR is no replacement for common sense!
Definitely true. You cannot legislate common sense. But you can use rules to make it clear to people that if they do not do X they will be grounded.
It's like drunk driving. Everyone knows that it's a bad idea to drive drunk; that's common sense. But some still do it. The laws against it reduce the incidence of drunk driving and reduce fatalities associated with it. How do they do that? By forcing people to have common sense? Nope, that never works. The laws work because people do not want to get a ticket/get arrested, and they change their behavior accordingly. The laws do not replace common sense; they do often keep people with no common sense from doing stupid things.
Definitely true. You cannot legislate common sense. But you can use rules to make it clear to people that if they do not do X they will be grounded.
It's like drunk driving. Everyone knows that it's a bad idea to drive drunk; that's common sense. But some still do it. The laws against it reduce the incidence of drunk driving and reduce fatalities associated with it. How do they do that? By forcing people to have common sense? Nope, that never works. The laws work because people do not want to get a ticket/get arrested, and they change their behavior accordingly. The laws do not replace common sense; they do often keep people with no common sense from doing stupid things.
MakeItHappen 15
QuoteQuoteNo, you're right - the BSR proposal doesn't have penalties in it for a 'wayward jumper'. Oddly enough, I can't seem to find ANY penalties in the SIM regarding BSRs - so you seem to be talking through your hat on that issue. As you keep saying yourself, penalties for individual jumpers have to come from the STA/DZO.
There are no 'official', published or standardized 'penalties' for any BSR violation.Quote
NOW we're starting to get somewhere... ok, Ms.RDND... what ARE the penalties to a DZO or STA that willfully, consistently disregards safety regulations?
As I said before, there is no menu of penalties.
What happens in real life is that the RD tries to correct the situation with persuasive arguments, aka diplomacy. If that does not work, the issue may be elevated to a formal disciplinary action. Also serious safety violations usually end up with a formal action, but not always (The reason for that is another topic.). The formal action procedure is detailed in the Governance Manual Sec 1-6, available on the USPA web site.
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QuoteNow, as you have noted, the 'penalties for individual jumpers have to come from the STA/DZO.'
That is exactly the point. That is in place today. Twenty words written in a one-inch thick manual, sitting in the school, will not have any impact upon the implementation of how a DZO runs the DZ.
The 'enforcement' comes from the DZO or S&TA. That won't change with a new BSR.
No, it won't change, and shouldn't. What it DOES do is make the DZO create a plan to separate traffic. It doesn't leave it up to whether or not they WANT to (like the failed education option does), it says they WILL.
Consider this illustrative example:
Say there was a BSR that said:
"DZOs will create a plan for minimum pull altitudes based on jumpers' license level."
DZO A says "Pull whenever you want, just don't hit the dirt at high speed."
DZO B says "Pull by 2000 ft AGL for all experience levels."
DZO C says "
Each DZO fulfilled the BSR requirement.
Does this create an 'industry standard'?
Does this put additional liability upon the DZO?
Does this correct the behavior of a low puller?
Does this educate jumpers about the hazards of pulling low?
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QuoteQuoteThe BSR puts the STA and DZO on notice that they HAVE to take a proactive approach to the problem - what's the problem with that?
No they don't. USPA is a voluntary organization. No one is 'forced' to do anything.
If someone doesn't do something that USPA 'requests' they may be kicked out or denied membership.
USPA is not the FAA or police. USPA does not have the clout to go into a DZ and say 'you must do yadda, yadda. yadda or else'. USPA politely asks DZOs to do 'yadda, yadda, yadda.'
And if they don't, they lose their Group membership and the other advantages and perqs that go with that. DZO and STA could lose certifications / licenses, based on the severity of the problem - or are you saying that USPA would ignore a willful safety violation and do nothing?
see above and read the Governance Manual.
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Saying that "education is enough" *IS*, in fact, saying that not separating patterns is ok
No, this is incorrect. Try reading this.
Quote- because you leave it up to the DZO to decide whether or not to do it.
You forget about all the staff and customers a DZO has. A free market will compel DZOs to make their operations safer.
There have been lots and lots of big ways that have traffic patterns set by organizers and the jumpers. These pattern rules, when followed, allow many jumpers to land safely at the same time.
Since your experience is low, have you ever seen a 100-way from the ground?
You'll be amazed at the staged break-off procedures and pull altitudes that happen on these dives. Then after all are open, they proceed to the ground in an orderly fashion. This is all arranged by the organizers and jumpers. DZOs rarely are involved with these rules. USPA is never involved. Organizers take corrective actions. They don't call up USPA and ask 'Can you cut Jimmy Jumper off my load because he did a HP landing in the middle of a 100-way?'.
QuoteYou've never heard of anyone suing a DZ? Funny, because I have...
You really need to read the book I mentioned.
QuoteDo you have some sort of new education that's going to cure egos?
The usual 'slap up the side of the head' will work. (Figuratively speaking)
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Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
Make It Happen
Parachute History
DiveMaker
mollyo 0
hey all. just wanted to give you an update & close out this post. See Billvon's post
titled "Results of USPA meeting." in this forum. A hug step forward for safe skies for all. Thank you everyone for your input in preparation for the meeting.
titled "Results of USPA meeting." in this forum. A hug step forward for safe skies for all. Thank you everyone for your input in preparation for the meeting.
Hello Rick!
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