"Possibility of 2nd sky-diving company in DeLand creates turbulence "

Hang in there TK, you'll get through this.
Skydive City is NOT in the wrong here!

since your choosing to discuss it on a public forum, can you explain it a little better?

if you have to evict somebody, i would assume that means they are rentin? and that guy can obviously pay his bills. So why would he need to pick a lock to get into something he is renting.

Freefall Express has never had a 'rental agreement' in place with Skydive City for the aircraft hangar. Actually, in the 15 years I have been at Skydive City, I have never seen any written agreement of any kind between Skydive City and Freefall Express.

From BSR recent Newsletter:

(I believe in the community, not DZO BS. Just wanted to put this out there since it is in front of some BSR jumpers.)

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FREEFALL EXPRESS VS SKYDIVE CITY @ ZHILLS

There has been a lot of gossip going on about the situation at Zhills. Dropzone.com and various others are completely misinforming the public and it is time for Freefall Express to finally speak about the situation so that the rumors and slander stop.

First - Yes, we are in the process of trying to open another DZ at Zhills. Here is why.

What we will report are the facts that can be easily proven through records and court proceedings. Most of you know that Freefall Express has been supplying Skydive City with aircraft and employees for many years. Freefall Express implemented a change in the pricing structure to eliminate inefficiencies in loading and flying the aircraft. Instead of abiding by the verbal contract, TK Hayes chose to lease aircraft from various other competitors, including Sky's the Limit and Deland, eliminating the need for our otters any longer. FFE owns two critical pieces that help run Skydive City: the fuel farm and the hangar. They invested thousands of dollars in this in order for Skydive CIty to comply with the terms for obtaining a lease extension on the land that they are located on, this not only Skydive City and FFE to keep operating, but also the Sunshine Factory, the Hard Dock Cafe, the Sunset Bar and Paragone Rigging. FFE also provided Skydive City with interest-free loans in the startup years to keep them established.

TK Hayes has lost the plot. He has cut the locks off the fuel farm and stole and excess of $27,000.00 from us and then proceeded to commandeer the hangar that was built by FFE, locking up all of FFE's equipment. In addition, Zhills has been putting jumpers in imminent danger by violating FAA regs.

Our DZO's have had to repeatedly travel to Zhills to take back what is rightfully theirs and have spent numerous hours in court and thousands in legal fees. In addition, several key personnel who we love very much have lost their jobs. This is a very bad situation and it is poisoning any relationship that The Ranch has with ZHills as well as Deland. Although in the past Ranch Hands have typically visited there for the holidays, this will not be so any longer. People are starting to reschedule vacations and we don't blame them.The good vibe at Zhills has been lost. Even the Europeans are not going there in the number they used to.

More people are traveling over to Sebastian since it is a much nicer DZ, close to the beach and has numerous hotels (much nicer than the ones at Zhills) and they still have availability with skydiver rates. In addition, there is a lot more to do during non-jumping hours, from proximity to beach, amusements and nightlife. Even though many people are flying into Tampa, for loyalty reasons they have changed course: they are driving over to the East Coast to jump there instead so before you go, you may want to talk to the others since the game plans have changed and a lot of us are doing the East Coast this year.

I suspect this situation will be evently solved by the court's and lawyers eventually

Why all the drama in a public forum with all the he said she said.

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First - Yes, we are in the process of trying to open another DZ at Zhills. Here is why.

I still don't get it. Even if everything you say about Z-Hills is true, that doesn't explain why you are opening a new DZ at Deland. Okay, so you want to operate your planes somewhere to make money - that's all well and good. But why at that particular location where there is already a drop zone, which has no bearing on what happened at Z-Hills. None of your message explains that. It looks like you're trying to punish Deland for what Z-Hills did... Please explain why you chose that location.

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First - Yes, we are in the process of trying to open another DZ at Zhills. Here is why.

I still don't get it. Even if everything you say about Z-Hills is true, that doesn't explain why you are opening a new DZ at Deland. Okay, so you want to operate your planes somewhere to make money - that's all well and good. But why at that particular location where there is already a drop zone, which has no bearing on what happened at Z-Hills. None of your message explains that. It looks like you're trying to punish Deland for what Z-Hills did... Please explain why you chose that location.

Bob leased his aircraft to Skydive City

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First - Yes, we are in the process of trying to open another DZ at Zhills. Here is why.

I still don't get it. Even if everything you say about Z-Hills is true, that doesn't explain why you are opening a new DZ at Deland. Okay, so you want to operate your planes somewhere to make money - that's all well and good. But why at that particular location where there is already a drop zone, which has no bearing on what happened at Z-Hills. None of your message explains that. It looks like you're trying to punish Deland for what Z-Hills did... Please explain why you chose that location.

Name recognition essentially. It's a lot easier to run a drop zone off an established airport than start afresh somewhere else.

We should all remember too, that FFE was instrumental in starting up Skydive City as a competitor to George Kabeller's Phoenix Parachute Center, so we can't really get too worked up about thew morals of the situation if we are honest with ourselves. Part of the reason Billy started Skydive City with Sunshine Factory was to have somewhere to fly his planes, and somewhere for them to sell gear.

When I was manager there, it was a friggin' nightmare to be honest, trying to avoid conflict with the other operation there, and FFE is correct in saying that they extended us a huge amount of credit on things like A/C leasing and fuel because we were essentially broke most of the time.

However, bearing in mind that the only reason they did all of that was to have somewhere to fly, it doesn't surprise me in the least that they would turn on Skydive City if they sourced aircraft from somewhere else. The circumstances of gaining access to Z Hills airport for another operation might be a whole lot different now. I don't think the city is ready to go through the in-fighting and political nonsense that they went through during the Skydive City/Phoenix wars.

Just to back TK up on another point. He's correct in stating that there was no solid legal arrangement with FFE. During my time as manager, it was all done by word of mouth also, and I never saw any written agreement between the two companies. It was just presumed that as Billy was a director and co-owner of each, it wasn't necessary.

The sooner Billy disentangles himself from Skydive City and gives up, the better it will be for him and everyone else involved. Skydive City has weathered worse, and it will weather this.

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The day after the meeting in Deland (Monday right?), that Billy shows up at Z-Hills, with his brother Joe (who is supposedly opening the Deland dropzone, not Billy), and Tom Dessert, Freefall Express' mechanic, Marius Ivascu, two body guards, one of their many attorneys, and a locksmith and attempted to take over our aircraft hangar.

police, hours of pain in the ass, and in the end, they left with a bunch of parts and stuff from the hangar. (which is still filled with Freefall Express stuff)

Bill Richards recently 'gave' one share each of his Skydive City shares to his brother Joe and Tom Dessert, making them now shareholders of Skydive City, albeit, small shareholders.

Send FFE an eviction notice & bill for parts storage and then put their stuff out on the curb.

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Hello Jan Meyer,



Am I correct in assuming you may represent us on the United States Board of Directors as a National Candidate? If so, how the hell can you take a stance in a civil dispute between two dropzones. Mind you, I am certain both are USPA dropzones. So it is safe to say, you will not remain neutral and listen to all of the facts before you open your mouth in a public forum advising a USPA dropzone owner be kicked to the curb? This is exactly why I didn’t vote for you, and I encouraged others not to; you can’t keep your mouth shut. You just can’t help it. You may have a well known name across the country due to your years of service or even your involvement in formation jumping but you are far from politically correct. It is my understanding from people who were on the board that you opening your mouth was a Direct reason that the settlement against USPA had to be negotiated prior to any trial. And yes I understand that the insurance company absorbed the settlement but that is a very callus point of view. As a national director, I am hoping for a more professional stance on issues that come to your attention. I am shocked and appalled at your suggestion. I think if this were a sporting event you would receive an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty. Please explain.

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Freefall Express has never had a 'rental agreement' in place with Skydive City for the aircraft hangar. Actually, in the 15 years I have been at Skydive City, I have never seen any written agreement of any kind between Skydive City and Freefall Express.

So what you are saying is: Billy just showed up with his planes and you said ok ill use them. Why did you two not have an agreement? If thats the case. Whats the problem then? It’s obvious that Billy is upset about something.



I’m sorry to say, skydiving is a business. This happens in our great country all of the time, it is called Capitalism. Sorry to offend any left wing liberal socialists here. Home depot and Lowe's do business up the block from each other across our country. I call bullshit when I see it and, TK, I’m sorry you are going through this. I am truly sincere. If you are going to have partners that help start your business, you might want to get agreements in writing. I think you did the same thing that's happening to you, to the past DZ. The old saying, what comes around goes around.



As far as this thread. If this is not a personal attack on the Richards then I dont know what is... Shame on you DROPZONE.com and its monitors for allowing this to go this far. I predict one of those little locks to appear next to this thread in the very near future.

Umm..the thread was STARTED by one of those monitors.

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Umm..the thread was STARTED by one of those monitors.

No really! You dont say. Thanks for stating the obvious. That was to let people know whats going on.... Not to go on a bashing of one DZO or another. To be honest I can care less who bashes who on here. I rarely come on here because of this double standard of people that dont even skydive. What happened to shut the fuck up and jump!

Listen their are three sides to every story and you are getting one side here. TK's side and for him to come on here a state that there were no agreements is bullshit.[edit: personal attack removed. Craig. ]

Why would you do business without a agreement. Even further this whole situation is because both parties didn't agree on terms and parted ways. So I guess TK is full of shit because there must of been some sort of agreement for them to disagree in the first place.

You want to talk facts go right ahead. It makes for good reading. If not let the courts figure this out and lets skydive instead of posting bullshit online
Have a great day!

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So I guess TK is full of shit because there must of been some sort of agreement for them to disagree in the first place.

Well, someone is, but it's not TK. He wasn't present when the business started in late 1992. Jerry Bird was the first manager, then Matt O'Gwinn, then me, then TK. TK is not responsible for way that the verbal agreement was made to supply aircraft and fuel. He just has to deal with the fallout. If anyone made the mistake here, it's FFE, as they have little or no recourse to force Skydive City to use them for aircraft support.

Billy doesn't really have much of a dog in this race. The best he can do is to try to start a new DZ at both DeLand and Z Hills. Good luck with that.

Oh, and you're clearly a ranch hand, it shouldn't bother you too much. Remember, you guys aren't going there any more, remember ?

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So I guess TK is full of shit because there must of been some sort of agreement for them to disagree in the first place.

Well, someone is, but it's not TK. He wasn't present when the business started in late 1992. Jerry Bird was the first manager, then Matt O'Gwinn, then me, then TK. TK is not responsible for way that the verbal agreement was made to supply aircraft and fuel. He just has to deal with the fallout. If anyone made the mistake here, it's FFE, as they have little or no recourse to force Skydive City to use them for aircraft support.

Billy doesn't really have much of a dog in this race. The best he can do is to try to start a new DZ at both DeLand and Z Hills. Good luck with that.

Oh, and you're clearly a ranch hand, it shouldn't bother you too much. Remember, you guys aren't going there any more, remember ?

Sebastian here I come.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/courts/civil/two-shareholders-feud-in-lawsuit-over-control-of-skydive-city-in/1103581

I would think Billy's logic would be that if he owns the fuel farm and the hangar then that'd be a great reason to have a DZ at that airport i.e. existing infrastructure. That'd be my guess anyway.

I've been to zhills a couple of times for the christmas/new year boogie. For unrelated (to this thread) reasons I'm not going this year.

Like has been said, there's always 3 sides to a story, just because TK (who was always awesome when I was down there) is posting here, doesn't mean his is the only side of the story. I find it difficult to reconcile what TK has said in this thread and what I've read in the news.

Full disclosure: I'm a ranch hand, born and bred - and proud of it.

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FFE owns two critical pieces that help run Skydive City: the fuel farm and the hangar.

He has cut the locks off the fuel farm and stole and excess of $27,000.00 from us and then proceeded to commandeer the hangar that was built by FFE, locking up all of FFE's equipment

Here's why this is hard to believe - for starters, TK doesn't own Skydive City outright. He has partners he has to deal with, so for him to switch aircraft providers, a majority of those partners have to agree. From what I understand, a majority of those partners were present at the time the verbal agreements were made, so the switch in providers was made with all knowledge of all previous agreements.

On that subject, the term of a verbal agreement is often unspecified, and any business person who enters into such an agreement does so at the risk of the term ending at any point. This goes for both sides, as Skydive City could have found itself without an aircraft provider at the drop of a hat if Billy felt he had a better option for his planes.

Back to the story, with regards to the fuel farm, the hanger, and the 'theft' of $27,000 worth of fuel. Again, as mentioned above, Skydive City is a partnership, and if the plan upon droping FFE as a provider involved breaking and entering, and grand larceny, I have trouble believing that they would have went forward with that plan. If FFE truely owned the fuel farm and hanger, it would have been an issue that would have needed to be resolved before dumping FFE as a provider.

Let's face it, the fuel farm and hanger are simply real estate, so somebody hold either legal title or a current lease from the title holder. If FFE holds either, all they need to do is step forward, and have trespassers arrested. Seeing as how they haven't done so, I find it hard to believe that they truely own either. While a verbal agreement might exist between a business and a service provider, I can't see an airport leasing any part of itself to anyone on a verbal basis, or the owner of an adjecent plot of land doing the same. Legally it belongs to someone, and that person gets to call the shots as to who is permitted there, and what they do.

In terms of the 'theft' of fuel, stealing $27,000 worth of fuel would be a felony. All of the partners would have had to agree to a felonious course of action if we're to buy the story being told here. Beyond that, the legal owner of the land and fuel would have to let that theft slide without the immediate involvment of law enforcement. When was the last time you heard of anyone knowingly allowing someone (especially someone they don't like) to tresspass on their land and steal $27,000 worth of property without taking action.

What would make a lot more sense is that FFE played it loose and easy with the paperwork for years, and now it's biting them in the ass. No contracts, no leases, nothing to back up their claims, leaving the court to sift through some 20 years of 'verbal' dealings with several different partners and managers, and sort out who is entitled to what.

that is a reasonably accurate summation.

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So what you are saying is: Billy just showed up with his planes and you said ok ill use them. Why did you two not have an agreement? If thats the case. Whats the problem then?

And if Billy chooses to change the rates, then TK is free to find another supplier. Billy wanted to change the "deal" so TK was free to change his part as well.

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It’s obvious that Billy is upset about something.

Yes, that he tried to change the rules and was surprised when it didn't work.

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I’m sorry to say, skydiving is a business. This happens in our great country all of the time, it is called Capitalism.

Yes, and when person 'A' tries to get more than person 'B' thinks the deal is worth.... then 'B' is free to shop somewhere else. That is what Capitalism is.

I don't care too much about the politics. Personally, if this guy wants to open a DZ I don't understand why he doesn't look at Flagler airport, they used to have a DZ there and with the closing of many of their flight schools and Ginn pulling their a/c out after going under I think it would be a great place to open a DZ. N.S.B. is another palce, thats a nice airport with not much going on.

My point is there are other places to open that would probably welcome the buisness so why chose to go to an airport with an established DZ unless your just trying to stir shit up.

All that being said, if he wants to open a DZ in Deland, and the airport will have him then nobody really has much to say about it. it's done in every other industry in America. Find a Mcdonalds you can almost count with in a block you'll find a burger king and a wendy's. Find a bank, you'll find 2 more of different branches find a bar... etc.

I understand some people have an issue with this guy, but capitalism is capitalism...
Would I go to this guys dropzone? yea I might check it out and if he's not a dick, and his DZ managers not a dick and the jumps are cheaper, I might go back.

If I want to buy a car and their are two dealerships within a block of eachother I am going to check them both out. Who ever gives me the best price, and good service is going to get my business. Competition is good for any market, including skydiving.

It's easy to ponitficate and say "I think he is a asshat and I will never go to his DZ" but the reality is if the dropzone opens and offers the same service (skdiving) at a cheaper price people WILL go. I guess.....

Hi BSBD

Your post said "Freefall Express implemented a change in the pricing structure to eliminate inefficiencies in loading and flying the aircraft."

While it sounds innocent enough it raised a red flag for me. Full disclosure I don't have a dog in this fight, don't jump anymore etc won't be going to florida etc.

I was there when George Kabella tried very hard to do exactly what BW wants "Freefall Express implemented a change in the pricing structure to eliminate inefficiencies in loading and flying the aircraft.

On the 15 minute call all peeps had to be geared up waiting for the plane in the hot florida sun. When the plane landed jumpers were stongly encouraged to Run to the airplane. The plane started it's TO roll before everyone was even seated.

Please don't ask about seat belts or having a few people from the back of the plane walk to the front and stand up on T.O. due to CG issues" I was one of those idiots standing up next to the pilot looking at the windshield

OTOH skydive was more jumper friendly. No waiting in the hot sun, no running to the airplane. We had 2 LO's for walk up loads for different experience levels and free video. Standing up on T.O. was still the standard in the sport.

No When eloy ges to LP for Boogie they want you next to the runway so the plane doesn't have to wait for the slow pokes. But they also provide shade and water in the waiting area (Thank you Larry Hill and Mr Burke, and Fred Sands)

Now everyone has to wear a seatbelt on T.O. thats a good thing, but a bunch of skydiver paid with their lives for that change due to the tragedy at Perris.

Can't stand up on T.O when your wearing a seat belt so the CG issue was BS unless in a effort to eliminate the ineffiency off haveing to refuel too often or it helped the rate of climb on T.O.

How many jumpers can fit on a a airplane? Regardless of the size of the plane at least one more to make it uncomfortable for the jumpers and efficient for the DZ. We're not just talking cessna's all the way up to the 727 and c-130's.

Proper use of the english language (and spelling) works wonders.

FWIW Sometime after TK took over Z-hills eliminated one LO, free video was eliminated and the remaining LO collected a $1 from the peeps on his load.

If you have to feed your habit that you have to pay the price and take what ever crap they throw at you.

The originial R.I.P.

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CG issue was BS unless in a effort to eliminate the ineffiency off haveing to refuel too often or it helped the rate of climb on T.O.

Forward CG increases takeoff distance and decreases rate of climb (very slightly). There'd be no advantage other than to bring the CG within margins if necessary.

Dave

CALLING YOU FOR HAVING THE TRUE??? ARE YOU OUT OF MIND!!! Since the beginning you're NEVER said the true!!! You are accuse the wrong person because the FAA found out YOU WAS FLIYNG ILLEGALLY, without commercial licences and your medical was due since a long time ago. You think you are a good manenger but you are never do your job when one of your employe rob more than 100 000$. Who paid for that trial? The 3 owners of the compagny (yes that include Billy Richard) and your not one of them!!! At that moment the only person who make money on the worst friendly drop zone it's you. I hope you will be kick out sone and that drop zone will be what it be FRIENDLY without TROUBLE MACKER AS YOU!!!

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CALLING YOU FOR HAVING THE TRUE??? ARE YOU OUT OF MIND!!! Since the beginning you're NEVER said the true!!! You are accuse the wrong person because the FAA found out YOU WAS FLIYNG ILLEGALLY, without commercial licences and your medical was due since a long time ago. You think you are a good manenger but you are never do your job when one of your employe rob more than 100 000$. Who paid for that trial? The 3 owners of the compagny (yes that include Billy Richard) and your not one of them!!! At that moment the only person who make money on the worst friendly drop zone it's you. I hope you will be kick out sone and that drop zone will be what it be FRIENDLY without TROUBLE MACKER AS YOU!!!

So...You just joined us to make that one post...Now if we only knew who it is aimed at...it might make sense!

Well that's easy. It's aimed at TK and how he's run Zhills for the past three years.

Some just don't care about the truth and some just don't care about the troubles....always tow side of story... if some want just the one...SO keep it like that.....No one is a God on that earth