talking to a dead man

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The overall fatality rate hasn't changed much at all in the past ten years. The difference is that ten years ago most fatalities were not under a perfectly good parachute; today they are. The widespread usage of AAD's, particularly the Cypres, has reduced no pull and low pull fatalities down to a more reasonable level. We've traded one method of dying for another.

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I have a graph on my web site showing fatality rates for various causes over the last 10 years.

www.iit.edu/~kallend/skydive/ and scroll down until you see the link.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

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Hey dude they don't make the ad's..The company paying to run them does.

Ron, I'm not trying to come down on you personally...just trying to get everyone to think a little bit.

USPA is in a difficult position trying to represent skydivers, represent the GM-DZO(s), shill for their advertiser's, etc., which I see as a poor position from which to take stand on an issue. In my eyes, they lose their credibility.

Europeans do not yet suffer from excesive tort like we do here in the US. Thus regulations can and do work for them. For example, they have social medicine, so the average person doesn't have to worry about losing everything when disaster strikes.

A review of real risk should be part of everyone's life plans before engaging in high risk activities. For example, some people are single living parents of dependent children, yet they still feel that the pleasure of the sport is worth the risk. Surviving children and their grandparents tend to cause trouble in the courts where a ready audience of obese whuffos is ready to award lavishly at the DZO's expense regardless of the fact that the deceased skydiver simply made poor life decisions.

I have a wife and two children, and they are largely dependent on me for financial support. Thus, I have also purchased enough life insurance to see them through if I'm not present to meet my resposibilities. I also have adequate healthcare insurance too. In short, I don't expect disinterested parties to have to pay for my mistakes.

I'm also an AOPA member, and their membership magazine has lots of insurance ads soliciting their members for a variety of policies. I don't see this with USPA, and many of their members are woefully underinsured or not insured at all. This only causes additional grief when their survivors have to borrow money to bury the deceased.

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I'm glad the rating holders and DZO's that you've interacted with recommend conservative canopies. I've already said that I'm not saying ALL of them do it. I'm saying there ARE DZO's, S&TA's, riggers and instructors out there telling people to buy small canopies at low experience levels. Sorry if that's hard to accept, but it's happening.

That is ABSOLUTELY true. Some of them are gifted teachers, and can coach people into jumping safely on small stuff. Others can't, and it makes me sick to my stomach when I consider that low-time jumpers can't tell the difference, and will take at face value what is told them by anybody with a couple hundred jumps (especially when that person says, "you can handle this cool small canopy").

We need experienced jumpers to be safe, (not necessarily conservative) considerate role models to new jumpers. They often don't have the sense to look out for themselves, and if we want our sport to stay safe, we have to look out for them.

As a gear seller, I'm trending toward recommending larger sized canopies toward new jumpers. I'm grateful that nobody's asked me for anything stupid yet, but my time will come...

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Ron, I'm not trying to come down on you personally...just trying to get everyone to think a little bit.

Brother I never really took it personal.

I understand your issue, but using AOPA as an example.

Aircraft cost a lot...Skydiving rigs are next to nothing compared.

Most of the insurance you see is for the Aircraft...not the pilot. Also most people don't think of flying is as crazy as skydiving, so it is easier to get those type of ad's.

I am glad that you are so careful with you health/family/resorces...Most in this sport are not.

But then again, I know a lot of World Champions in this sport that live in trailers...So there is not that much money in the sport for many people to take it seriously.

The fact still stands that education is not working....In my ground school (almost 10 years now) I still remember my Instructor telling me about the dangers of flying the canopy into the ground and killing yourself. I still managed to hook it in on a 1.4 loaded Stiletto on jump #375. AND I had Charlie Mullins as a canopy coach...AND I STILL HOOKED IT IN. If it were not for the fact I was young (22) And that it was not a higher wingload...I might be dead.

So it is a big issue with me...I have felt the ground...And I would save as many people from it as I can.

As it stands, now some say I have a nice hook....But I took my time learning it, and have seen may people carted away from trying to go to small to fast.

I think the USPA is WAY behind.
I think the USPA makes TONS of STUPID choices every year..I could go into it, but thats another thread. (BTW is it true that USPA gave a waiver to Perris for RSL's for non licensed jumpers? Anyone?)

But regulation while distasteful will save lives....Or at least protect them a little longer so that they can die a little later.

Ron

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I have a graph on my web site showing fatality rates for various causes over the last 10 years.

So the landing fatalities look to be down a little from where they were 3-5 years ago?

I am sick of this thread beyond all belief and twice closed down my window before asking the same question Canuck. BTW, I guess, go canucks...

I got into a very heated debate with Kallend about this very same issue, I'm pretty sure canopy related incidents have either gone down OR AT THE VERY LEAST stayed the same while, and I'll say this once again, while # of jumpers has increased, so maybe, JUST MAYBE, the situation out there isn't as bad as it may seem inside of this forum based on ones and zeros.

Anyhow, F^&* it all I'm goin jumpin and I'll buy anyone in this forum a jump ticket to jump with me because you are all my brothers and sisters in the real world.

Blue ones...

agreed, all the numbers i've seen (and none are really detailed enough to draw real conclusions from) show that skydiving as a whole has become much safer given the number of participants. NOTHING indicates that we are losing skydivers at such alarming rates that Big Brother needs to step in and "save us from ourselves"

yes any single death is tragic..not being able to live at all because of excessive regulation to save those who chose to walk the edge of the envelope in the first place is FAR worse than any fatalitiy.

Maybe, but they are still the #1 cause of deaths.

In my job, I track and trend different indices.
I then look at the trends and try to spot any negative issues. I then try to formulate a corrective action plan, and give it to the top brass.

Then I wait to see if they use it, and if it works...

I have seen the negative trend in fatalities for several years...

Since 1996 the #1 cause of deaths were skydivers under perfect canopies. Almost more than double from any year prior to 1992.

We saw this trend, and the manufacturers tried to limit who can get the "cool" stuff..My first Stiletto I had to sign TWO WAIVERS to get it...And I had to lie like hell to PD who called me to see if I should really get one....And I hooked it right in on jump #3 on it. Then the second hand market and some other parachute makers stoped really caring who they sold what to.

So regulation from the manufactorer and the gear stores didn't work.

Some DZ's didn't let you jump small stuff. Hell, I was one of the first people to jump an Extreme, and people used to watch to see the new small toy....But that went away as more came around.

Instructors are not able to teach you everything you need ot know in the FJC...And not every DZ has S&TA's that can watch every person and baby sit. Some people take the "It's a free world, let Darwin work" mentality.

So education is not working....

Whats left?

Regulation...But not just regulation...It will take Regulation to keep them from getting in over thier heads, Education to help them learn how to handle what they do have, and Observation from the "Adults" to help curb bad habits.

It is all apart of the recipe for lowering the #1 cause of deaths....And when this is no longer the top cause...I'll start looking at the next one.

Ron

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I have a graph on my web site showing fatality rates for various causes over the last 10 years.

So the landing fatalities look to be down a little from where they were 3-5 years ago?

More likely statistical noise - the numbers are (from a statistics point of view) too small to draw a conclusion with a high degree of certainty. Maybe a weighted moving average would suggest a trend.

Hey I'm not arguing that small canopies are potentially deadly (just as any canopy can kill us) and no argument that a less experienced skydiver is more likely to hurt/kill themselves on any canopy. I just was making the comment that according to the stats on Kallend's website that the landing deaths seem to be down a small amount in the last few years, that's all.

By the way, in a previous post you made not long ago, you mentioned that you thought a 135 was a large canopy. But to me a 135 is a small canopy. In fact I've heard people talk of a 135 as the beginning size of where high performance canopies start. I weigh 200-205 lbs naked and only see myself flying a 150 when I have 400+ jumps and maybe a 135 sometime a few hundred jumps after that. In fact I'd be surprised if I ever fly a 120 or smaller. But who knows what will happen. When I first started off in this sport I thought I'd never fly anything smaller than a 190 and I'm already consistently (knock on wood) landing a 170 here in CO.

actually from your account it sounds like education is working just fine, and some people are still making stupid choices and fatal mistakes..

you know what?

OH WELL..

the numbers we have for skydiving fatalities so far are WAY to insignificant for people to be running around (as you appear to be) screaming about the sky falling. When in fact given the increase in the number of jumps made per year the fatality rates are actually going DOWN. Of course in your zeal to save just one more life your missing the fact that your indices are only minor blips on the larger chart..

but string a few unfortunate events in a row and someone is right there ready to legislate our freedom away in the further interests of safety.

there is a very simple way to prevent skydiving accidents, prevent skydiving.

of course then you might as well throw all your freedom to decide what risks are acceptable to you as an individual as well..

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By the way, in a previous post you made not long ago, you mentioned that you thought a 135 was a large
canopy.

Bad joke on my part.....I call Tony H (10,000 jumps) "old" and scared for jumping a 120.

HP is relative to wingload...

Big is relative to personal view...I see a 120 as big. But I have spent almost 1,000 jumps on canopies that size or larger.

Ron

You don't get it.....If you don't look at the problems they grow....

Get 1,000 more jumps...Loose a few friends...Then talk to me.

I hope for your sake, and your families and friends that its not you next. Or would you be OK with that? Your family OK with that? Most legal threats have come from family members of dead skydivers.

Get over the "Its not a large part of the whole therefore not worth looking at"

What % or what raw # would YOU say is to many.

Have you lost anyone yet?


Ron

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Have you lost anyone yet?

Yup ... Holly

yes actually.

this problem ISNT growing..its shrinking your just not looking at it from any distance beyond the body infront of you.


my family & friends are fully aware of how i live (and risk) my life on a regular basis

guess i cant talk to you though i dont have enough jumps.


oh well.

reduce ALL speed limits by 20 mph. How many lives saved?
require helmets for any outdoor activity? how many lives saved?
everyone stay in bed all day. how many lives saved?

Well put, Hook. I think that waayyyy to many people think they are better thantheir jump numbers would indicate. Currency plays a role, as well. With about 180 jumps over almost 5 years, I am happy to keep jumping a nice big 210 Silhouette loaded at about 1:1 for 400 jumps before downsizing to a 190. I do like to hang on to both my front risers to build up a bit of speed for my little surf, but I have no interest in jumping a smaller canopy to impress other people.

"Assumption is the mother of all f-ups."

How on earth do these threads get so out of hand. I've seen FIVE CLOSE FRIENDS DIE jumping, strangely enough, four in the last five years, and get this RON of those four in the last five years, only one was due to a misjudgement under canopy.

So much for the odds.

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Currency plays a role

I think currency is a huge factory. Take Hook for example. He's got what? Somthing like 3500 jumps. He's obviously pretty experienced. But if for some reason he couldn't jump for a long time (shit happens and I'm not even talking about injuries) would he be able to just pickup his VX 60 and fly it the way he does today?

My airplane landings aren't nearly as good as they were this time last year. Why? Because this time last year I wasn't a skydiver and I was flying several times a week. Now I'm lucky if I fly once a month and I know I'm not nearly as good as I once was.

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Bad joke on my part.....I call Tony H (10,000 jumps) "old" and scared for jumping a 120.

Ron, you may want to mention that Tony also probably weighs 150 soaking wet. Not much of a wingload there.

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(BTW is it true that USPA gave a waiver to Perris for RSL's for non licensed jumpers? Anyone?)

It's true.

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I think currency is a huge factory. Take Hook for example. He's got what? Somthing like 3500 jumps. He's obviously pretty experienced.

There used to be a guy at Lake Wales. Tandem master, 4-way competitor. He had 4500 jumps and did hook turns every landing, very current. One day at Titusville he hammered into the runway and lived 3 hours.

Jump numbers and currency don't always help. A thermal, a rotor, or a downdraft can reach up and whack you. I am not disparaging the ability of anyone that you know. I can sit and list names and large jump numbers all day long.

All I am saying is this: Even large jumps don't make you safe, but they will make you a more competent canopy pilot. People should learn and get some experience. There is no rush to downsize.

Every weekend I see someone splash into the swoop pond. They all think they are great canopy pilots.

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I still managed to hook it in on a 1.4 loaded Stiletto on jump #375.

I know the feeling.

Back in the early eighties when I was about 175-lbs out the door, I was on a very windy load, and I found myself landing off the DZ at Antioch, CA. I was headed for a barbed-wire fence, so I thought I'd try a quick 360 to lose some atlitude. Well, I lost a whole bunch of altitude and the ground came up so fast that I barely made it into a fetal position before impact. Fortunately, the field was freshly plowed, so I didn't break anything. I didn't black-out, but it took a few seconds to connect the dots. I was flying a Pegasus-220, but I wasn't under it--we both impacted about the same time. I have never forgotten how fast the ground closed in on me!

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Here's a template for a simpler progression that would still improve safety.

You can only downsize one size at a time, and you have to have X jumps at each size before downsizing.

Switching make/model/planform must be done at a comparable size to what you jump before switching.

The Square One demo program actually makes this easy and practical. It is what I did. For me, X was about 10, and I stopped at a 1.3 loading on a rectangular canopy.

But with this template, all we have to argue about is X. For the purpose of this discussion, maybe 20 or 25?

Blue skies and home brews,
Dan'l

That's kind of the idea I was getting at with looking at people's log books. Noone seemed that was worth commenting on though.

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Thirty five jumps. Either 16 or 30 of those on a Sabre2 150 - he's called three times and said both so we're not real sure about that. 160 pounds body weight.

Simple.. Say no

I'm weighing in at 218 lbs and tormenting myself over whether to buy a 210 or a 230.