nate_1979 9 #26 October 6, 2005 Your right, that does belong in the other thread... This situation w/ skyhook is even less complicated, because I dont think you will find any documentation or any instructer etc. that will tell you "aww hell, dont worry bout pullin' no silver, ya got skyhook!" Advertisements are just that, advertisements.. Made to sell stuff.. this advertisment was made to show that skyhook gets you under a reserve quick. Advertisements are not training manuals, equipment manuals, or advice (unless you want to count the Femur is not a verb thing as an advertisement) If someone actually references an advertisement as what they base there EPs off of, they clearly need some serious training. I see advertisements frequently that show things that are not realistic, true, or correct... But they do catch your eye dont they. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnMitchell 16 #27 October 6, 2005 QuoteAgreed. Bill Booth would never advocate not going through the full EP. Just a tag line IMO.The old Vector Tandem manual use to say "Cutaway, wait for the RSL to deploy the reserve." How's that? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #28 October 6, 2005 QuoteEven you knew to pull silver[Tongue], or are you saying that after seeing the ad you would change that? Are you saying that you would ignore the owner’s manual, your training etc.? Are you saying that a student with 10 jumps looking to buy a new rig would know better?Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #29 October 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteEven you knew to pull silver[Tongue], or are you saying that after seeing the ad you would change that? Are you saying that you would ignore the owner’s manual, your training etc.? Are you saying that a student with 10 jumps looking to buy a new rig would know better? I would hope so. FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Frenchy68 0 #30 October 6, 2005 QuoteQuoteAgreed. Bill Booth would never advocate not going through the full EP. Just a tag line IMO.The old Vector Tandem manual use to say "Cutaway, wait for the RSL to deploy the reserve." How's that? I do not know about tandems. But the quote itself does bother me, especially since, as you stated, it was in a manual, not an ad. "For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #31 October 6, 2005 "Where's the Beef?" Are Wendy's burgers "really" larger than other fast food burgers? Do they contain more beef? It's advertising! (dating myself here...) No one expects a skydiver to base his/her decisions autonomously on advertising. In fact, manufacturers spend a lot of time and expense providing proper instruction in their operating manuals so that their customers will use their product correctly, within the safest possible limits. The advertisement is meant to grab your attention so that you ask questions, including why activating normal emergency procedures during any kind of malfunction is still important, with or without their product. Since you're asking, obviously it has grabbed your attention and done its job...as an advertisement. This ad merely shows the time/fall rate difference between EP's without the Skyhook and with the Skyhook. The manual on each life saving device (and/or contacting the manufacturer) will be your first line of understanding how each device works, not advertising. Manufacturers like to think their customers are smart enough to properly train themselves on using the equipment, through professional training and/or accompanying manuals. Commercials are (and have always been) about getting the customer's attention. Advertisements are rarely based on reality or instruction (to a certain point). That's what proper instruction, manuals, and web-based support are geared toward. Find an ad in most any industry that is based on accurate instruction on the use of its product and I'll show you a very boring ad. Sorry this bothers you. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #32 October 6, 2005 QuoteFind an ad in most any industry that is based on accurate instruction on the use of its product and I'll show you a very boring ad. Sorry this bothers you. I don't think it would be that hard to put an asterisk in the ad, with fine print that says "always follow appropriate emergency procedures, including pulling the reserve handle if appropriate". And it wouldn't hurt to add "always consult your instructors for advice". And I don't think it would make the ad boring. To me, that's the difference between responsible and irresponsible advertising.Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #33 October 6, 2005 We are obviously not jumping from the same plane. TMLS. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nate_1979 9 #34 October 6, 2005 yea, kinda like a "Dont use this hair dryer while in a bath tub" kind of thing right? FGF #??? I miss the sky... There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #35 October 6, 2005 QuoteTMLS 404? TIA! SLTU (Still Looking This Up ) edit - geez, can't even spell acronyms tonight Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Cloudi 0 #36 October 6, 2005 Thank my lucky stars. No offense. Kim Watch as I attempt, with no slight of hand, to apply logic and reason. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riddler 0 #37 October 6, 2005 Quote yea, kinda like a "Dont use this hair dryer while in a bath tub" kind of thing right? Not really. To me, this ad implies that you no longer have to take a critical step that could save your life, within the scope of what it is designed to do. A better analogy might be an ad for a hair-dryer that claims that it doesn't kill you if you use it in the bathtub. You can bet they would asterisk that product with fine print that says "please don't use in the bathtub".Trapped on the surface of a sphere. XKCD Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
The111 1 #38 October 6, 2005 Does the Skyhook still use the snap shackle that traditional RSL's use? I have only had a cutaway on a rig equipped with RSL once, and the RSL failed to do its job because the shackle came undone for some reason during the jump, deployment, or cutaway (it was connected on jumprun). I made a post about it and Bill Booth himself answered here saying that the shackle was the weak point of the system. After that cutaway I took my RSL off immediately, since in my eyes it served no purpose any more, having failed me 100% of the time (no, I do not think that statistic is accurate in general, but for my experience it is, and we base our decisions on our experience in this life). I am usually one who would disagree with a topic like this, but I think in this case the original poster may have a point. Not enough that I would complain about it on my own, but I will chime in and agree if someone else brings it up. www.WingsuitPhotos.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #39 October 6, 2005 Quotethe skyhook will get you under your reserve at least 300 feet earlier than non-skyhook, no matter what the mal is. Really? So the skyhook knows if you can't find your hacky, or if you have a PC in tow? That's a smart peice of kit! How does it know if your container is not open, or if you have a low drag baglock? The ad also upset me, particularly the scale indicating deployment within 100 ft. Is there ANYONE here who would use a skyhook equiped rig to cut away from a mal at 100 ft? tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bob.dino 1 #40 October 6, 2005 QuoteIs there ANYONE here who would use a skyhook equiped rig to cut away from a mal at 100 ft? Near the end of the RWS Skyhook promo video, there's a scene showing two BASE jumpers chopping perfectly good canopies at 100ft. One has time to flare; the other doesn't. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mjosparky 4 #41 October 6, 2005 However, Adrian did not have that information And BTW, I think we should probably get back to the original topic. Airtec has not made a statement that the investigation is concluded, AFAIK, so we shouldn't assume (edit for PC) that the CYPRES did anything out of accordance with the manual. Quote Onderzoek Cypres 2, S/N 01738, D.o.M. 07-2003 Investigation Plaats : Airtec Wunnenberg Location Tijdstip : 22 september 2005, 20.30 uur Date/time Aanwezig : Helmuth Cloth, Directeur Airtec Witnesses Karl Siemert, technicus Airtec Michael Wakob Afd. Ontwikkeling Airtec Achim Heinemann, technicus Airtec Kai Körner, technicus/vertegenwoordiging Airtec Norbert Meier, vertegenwoordiger DFV, ambtenaar Justitie Duitsland Jo Oosterveer, Paracentrum Texel, V.v.V. Het onderzoek werd geopend door Michael Wakob met een uitleg over de werking en het uitlezen van de gegevens van de Cypres 2. Michael Wakob opened the investigation with an explanation about the functioning and the way to read the data of the Cypres 2. Daar Airtec niets wist over de mechanische toestand van de automaat waren 2 technici aanwezig om eventueel te assisteren, dan wel de automaat te demonteren in het geval van een schade als gevolg van het ongeval. Since Airtec didn’t know anything about the mechanical situation of the AAD, there were 2 technicians available to assist or to dismantle the AAD in case of serious damage due to the accident. Na de uitleg werd de uitrusting met automaat gefotografeerd, waarna de automaat uitgebouwd en visueel geïnspecteerd werd. After the explanation, pictures were taken of the equipment with the AAD mounted, where after the AAD was taken out of the equipment and visual inspected. Vastgesteld werd, dat er geen zichtbare schade aan de automaat was en dat de cutter geactiveerd was. It was determined, that there was no visible damage to the AAD and that the cutter had been activated. De automaat werd via de communicatiepoort aangesloten op een computer, waarna deze de in de automaat opgeslagen gegevens met betrekking tot de dag van het ongeval en de sprong, waarin het voorval plaats vond binnenhaalde. The communication port of the AAD was connected to a computer, after which the data, stored in the AAD containing the information for the day of the accident and the jump where it happened was downloaded. Geregistreerd sprong verloop. Registered jump event. Tot ongeveer 550 meter is de daalsnelheid constant +/- 14 m/s. Until aprox. 550 meters, the rate of descent is constantly +/- 14 m/s. Daarna wordt er een handeling verricht, waardoor de daalsnelheid in korte tijd oploopt naar +/- 36,5 m/s. Thereafter an operation was performed, which caused a raise of the descent rate in a short time up to +/- 36,5 m/s. In de laatste drie (3) seconden voor de aktivatie is de snelheid constant op of iets boven 36,5 m/s. The last three (3) seconds before activation showed a constantly descent rate of 36,5 m/s or slightly above. De instellingen voor aktivatie van een Cypres 2 zijn: > 35 m/s op een hoogte van +/- 225 meter. Deze waarde werd met 1,5 m/s overschreden. Activation of the release unit will take place if a rate of descent = > 35 m/s (78 mph) at an altitude of +/- 225 meters (aprox. 750 ft.) This value was 1,5 m/s higher. De automaat activeerde op de normale hoogte omdat de vereisten voor aktivatie vervuld waren. The AAD has fired at the normal altitude since the requirements for activation had been fulfilled. De aktivatie is derhalve correct. Out of this point of view, the activation was correct. Na aktivatie blijft de daalsnelheid tot een hoogte van +/- 130 meter zeer hoog, daarna neemt deze af tot ongeveer 15 m/s. After activation, the rate of descent stayed very high up to an altitude of +/- 130 meters, thereafter the rate of descent slowed down to aprox. 15 m/s. Slotconclusie: End conclusion: De springer heeft door zijn handelwijze een situatie gecreëerd, waardoor de automaat op grond van zijn instellingen met betrekking tot hoogte en daalsnelheid activeren moest. Due to his behavior, the jumper created a situation in which the AAD according to its settings regarding altitude and rate of descent had to fire. SparkyMy idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
MikeForsythe 0 #42 October 6, 2005 QuoteThe ad also upset me, particularly the scale indicating deployment within 100 ft. Is there ANYONE here who would use a skyhook equiped rig to cut away from a mal at 100 ft? Hopefully not. But there have been cutaways where there has been impact at reserve line stretch where it could have made a difference. In addition, don't you think there is an advantage to be under canopy with a couple hundred extra feet to give you more time before landing?Time and pressure will always show you who a person really is! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #43 October 6, 2005 I'm old school, pre 3 ring, pre AAD, pre RSL. My 1st freefall was just that, from 2500 ft, with no AAD and the words of my jumpmaster "No hurry. You have the rest of your life to pull" ringing in my ears when I let go of the strut. It's been a long time since then, but after 4700 dives and 18 cutaways I still think the very best defence is being sharp, aware of your altitude and educated. I have no doubt that AAD's and Skyhooks will save lives (and take them) but those who use these tools succesfully have already failed. The trick should remain how not to do that, rather than equip yourself for when you do. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindsey 0 #44 October 6, 2005 QuoteKinda agree with Labrys here. We all know Booth's commitment to safety and innovation. We know he wouldn't advocate not pulling the (edit) reserve deployment. But ads like this are intended for people that are in the market for a new container. A large percentage of this market will be newer skydivers (pre-A license students). Those jumpers may think RWS is saying they no longer have to pull silver. That's not a good thing, IMO. But....I sure hope nobody takes their skdiving instruction from magazine advertisement. If a person believes he no longer has to pull silver because of some picture in a magazine....then, well....there's a much larger issue lurking, and such an individual is gonna have a sad day when critical thinking skills are needed. linz-- A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gavmaniac 0 #45 October 6, 2005 Pay close attention here, people. (in 'Merican: Listen up! or Lookit!) It does NOT matter what extra risk-reducing equipment you have on your rig (Cypres, Vigil, RSL, Skyhook, whatever), always execute your emergency procedures, pull your handles & pull your handles in the correct sequence. (in 'Merican: It don't matter whatcha wearin', pull them goddamm handles! )All the extras are great innovations & do help to make the sport safer but it's up to YOU to make sure that you're under a fully inflated working canopy before you meet the ground. So the RSL or Skyhook may beat you to the reserve, but go through the motions anyway. Stick to the plan - any deviation normally results in disaster. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #46 October 6, 2005 I might be to new to have a valid opinion or point. However since in this thread students have been mentioned as being prone to believing the skyhook advert as training and that it doesnt reiderate (sp) that we have to pull the reserve handle, I thought I would voice what I think about this. As a student I am multible times practicing EPS, hell I think Ive spent more time with my EPs then I have skydiving. That being said, the first cutaway I ever saw, was of a 1000 jump coach. He was excited to see his RSL in action, and to avoid being lectured pulled his reserve handle after he had the canopy daisy chained on the ground. I was annoyed at this, but alas had 20 jumps and wouldnt dare ask why he didnt pull it in the air after cutting away. As a student we are CONSTENTLY thinking of EPs and are less complacent about our basic survival skills, sometimes. I never thought for a moment there was an option to NOT pull the handles. I still for the most part, think what I learned in my FJC is gold and have yet to deviate. That being said, I do see the start of me getting comfortable with varies things ie my pull is a bit lazier now and its not an exaggerated arm to side release, its just a pull. I would assume there is just as much a chance as an "experienced" jumper not pulling the silver as a student. I also think that anyone who uses a advert as a form of training wasnt taught very well in the first place. If I had a rig with a skyhook and I had to cut away, and as I was pulling my silver, I knew there was a good stable canopy over my head, yes Id be smiling....Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Tonto 1 #47 October 6, 2005 You're never too new to have a valid opinion or point, and this post is simply a rant and is not aimed at you in any way. What I don't understand is this "comfortable" (Boredom?) of which you speak. The atmosphere and the ground don't care how many dives you have. A lazy pull is a lazy pull. A late flare is a late flare. When I look at those around me, I see great faith in gear, which is something I never had until recently. I DO NOT see great faith in self, except in several worst case senarios. The same 100 jump wonder who doubts their abilities to successfully complete their reserve drills or to maintain alti awareness or avoid collision is often the same jumper who thinks they are ready for a 40 way, or to downsize or to swoop. The military have a saying. "Train hard to fight easy." This sport is no longer a lifestyle. It's a recreation observed by some on an impossibly infrequent basis, and most people are better in their heads than they are in real life. Those people are best served with these "Passive" devices that function when they do not. The idea of my reserve being activated on a swoop horrifies me, as I swoop without exception. (Blah, Blah, conditions, crowded airspace - I'm in AFRICA people. We have few crowds and no weather other than hot and cold) The idea of being knocked unconsious, while bothersome, has not resulted in AAD use due to my choice of reserve and wing loading being unlikely to save me anyway. Loss of altitude awareness is always a risk and was a primary reason for me purchasing an AAD but after 12 years without incident I have managed to avoid that and no longer feel an AAD is an asset in my rig. I don't mean this post to be elietist. I just wish people would put as much effort into planning their dives, diving their plans, prepairing their gear, practicing their drills, staying sharp, planning their patterns, flying those patterns, not skydiving tired, hung over or wasted and improving their skills....... that they do in planning what latest greatest bolt on safety device they're going to use. Of course, that's never going to happen for the same reason AIDS spreads. Everyone thinks it will happen to someone else. So. Stock up on helmets, audiables, alti's, AAD's, skyhooks, hook knives, tershes, RSL's, body armour and gloves. Pain is a great teacher, but only if you live. tIt's the year of the Pig. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JeepDiver 0 #48 October 6, 2005 QuoteNear the end of the RWS Skyhook promo video, there's a scene showing two BASE jumpers chopping perfectly good canopies at 100ft. One has time to flare; the other doesn't. Perhaps I'm mistaken but I was under the impression that the canopies which deploy after the chop are base canopies packed with the slider down. It warns don't try this at home. As a side note, with the public discussion going on regarding the skyhook, word of mouth is the most effective. Bill certainly got his monies worth out of that ad. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lisamariewillbe 1 #49 October 6, 2005 My response wasnt directed to you per say. I agree with what you have said. Granted I havent been doing this for long. On varies things when I see myself getting complacent, I then focus on it more. Little things that could turn bad, like the lazy pull, or potato chipping at deployment. I want to be safe in this sport, and although I LOVE having things like AADs and RSLs I am still in the mindset of not relaying on them. I just wanted to let people hear from a newbies perspective. Hell my kids know EPs cause they are practiced at home when Im bored. That being said, I love the skyhook. I have seen videos, and learned about it when touring RW... I was impressed, it would be nice if they opened the technology up to other manufactors. Either way, when I get a rig it will have a aad and a rsl at the very least... but I for one, forget they are there after I have inspected both.Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #50 October 6, 2005 I'm with the "it's just advertising, you're taking it way out of bounds" crowd. However, that's a funny sig line. "It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye and it hits a spectator. " ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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