CYPRES saved my life!

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I jump safely and anybody that knows me will tell you that, even if they dont like me.

I really don't like you but from what I've seen you're a very safe skydiver. (I had nothing against you before, but I just read what Ron said about you drinking all the beer)

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I jump safely and anybody that knows me will tell you that, even if they dont like me.

I really don't like you but from what I've seen you're a very safe skydiver. (I had nothing against you before, but I just read what Ron said about you drinking all the beer)

Thats great no more beer for me

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I can see where one might not do certain types of dives, bigways or known zoo loads, if one doesn't have an AAD but to say you will not jump no matter what without an AAD is different. To me that is device dependency. If you are not device dependent why not do some two or four ways or a solo? You can still manage your risk without an AAD.

Really what it comes down to is this:

1. Jumping without an AAD is slightly riskier than jumping with an AAD (for regular RW work without swooping -- which is what I do)

2. Is making whatever jump I'm considering worth that extra risk?

3. If the answer is always no under non-extraordinary circumstances (such as a crashing plane), does that mean I am placing myself in situations where I am expecting the AAD to save me?

To me, the answer to question 3 is not automatically "yes". There could be at least two reasons I can think of in which I would refuse to make those jumps. One, the extra risk, however small, is just not worth it to me. Jumping is fun. But the sky will be there tomorrow.

Two, there's a tendency to build up bad habits -- nothing happened to me on this jump without an AAD. And I made the jump because my team was counting on me -- it was the last jump and we were behind by two points!

Over time, that slips to: well, we've been practicing really hard, the meet is next weekend, and it's the last jump of the day. And then: well, the meet is next month, and I can't get another AAD until after that. Etc.

To prevent that slide, I might choose just to make a hard-and-fast rule in the beginning -- even if, in reality, the extra risk of doing a solo jump with no Cypres is very slight.

There might be other reasons.

My only point is that one (device dependency) does not necessarily follow the other (refusing to jump without an AAD).

A few days ago while in Eloy Greg Gasson was giving a small camera flying seminar. He mentioned that the ONE time he jumped without an AAD he almost got knocked out. He was filming a big way and a girl turned to track and turned right into him.

Sure you here stories like this, the one in a million chance stories; but honestly it can happen. You don't want to be six feet under pounding the inside of your casket saying "Damn that ONE time!"

I did some jumps without AAD, mostly filming CRW jumps using a loaner rig, and that was fine. But I did do some FS4 camera jumps once on a borrowed rig without AAD, of course the first jump I got "wrapped" on exit by the entire team, someone hit me so my battery flew off the back of my top-mounted videocamera.

Although I will jump without AAD I'd really rather not especially when jumping (freefall) camera, because I'd feel mighty stupid going in when shit happens and I really could've used that damn piece of electronics...

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Dude,

How did you black out? As a result of the spinning??

Could have had a vagal reflex (passed out) from fear because of prolonged instabilty.... hate speculate but i guess i will :D

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page after page of total 'AAD is good' 'AAD is wussy' nonsense ... along with, 'Cypres saved you, maybe you should quit'

the germane point here folks, is that NO ONE taught this guy how to get out of an unintentional spin...

the only student to answer the question said he was NEVER taught how to get out of one... (although he seemed to have good awareness of what to do in the air, good for him, even if he does land shitty)

are we all so modern now.... that it can't happen ?
you've done AFF (with people holding you) so how could you spin on your own ??
so why bother imparting how to immediately correct it ??

I agree with TWARDO from another thread... you guys don;t even know how to go in right....

Yes, he WAS taught to recover from an unintentional spin. And, he was required to demonstrate his ability to do so.

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.......

the germane point here folks, is that NO ONE taught this guy how to get out of an unintentional spin...

......

....

Yes, he WAS taught to recover from an unintentional spin. And, he was required to demonstrate his ability to do so.

at last, some info ! thx

in that case, he should hang it up right now.... and leave it hung up ....

Hi ghost, I am responding to your post because I think you have done a great job explaining that you will consider jumping without an AAD but usually would not do it.

"ALL SKYDIVERS ARE DEVICE DEPENDENT!"

At least you are if you want to jump again. Parachutes are devices as well.

If you were training and the only rig available was a well built BASE rig that is safe in freefall but only has one canopy, would you jump? Mains usually open just fine.

If we were on some Carribean Island with no known regulations (or risk to the pilot and dz) I would probably keep jumping.

Should I then call you people out as being device dependent?

I believe the correct answer is no. You all get to choose your own limits. I get to choose whether I stay on a team with you.

If you don't want to drive a car without airbags, that is your choice as well. I just hope you get where you want to be.

Very true

Although my point is more based upon devices that actually do something without any input from the jumper. I separate all our gear into those two catagories. AAD's fit into the other catagory since, therotically, they will start the deployment process for the reserve without any input from the jumper at a certain altitude. No other piece of gear does anything by itself, including your rig.

For me, device dependency on your AAD is quite different than dependency on any other piece of gear. The AAD has the opportunity of killing you (two out) as well as saving you (if uncounsious). Your altimeter, goggles, rig, helmet do nothing by themselves. When I refer to device dependency, it is dependency on something that "does something". It does not include anyting else, even an RSL. RSL do nothing without some input from the jumper (initate cutaway).

I hope that clears up my position. I've gotten a couple PMs regarding other gear that people won't without or conditions they won't jump in. For me that is not device dependency as those things do nothing except offer the illusion of safety or protection. Yes, you can even jump without your rig if you wanted to. You most likely just would not be making any more jumps after that

I think I understand your position but still don't like trying to bully anyone into jumping in a situation they choose not to.

One of my favorite sayings is "Whatever you do, I'll be fine." I say that because I knowingly choose my own level of risks and I encourage others to do likewise.

Seek out knowledgable sources and learn all you can about this sport. That is the only way you can make your own informed choices.

Just for the record I would NEVER try to bully someone into jumping. We all have our own circumstances we abide by. I just don't necessarily have to agree with them is all

what you are refering to(someone not willing to jump without an AAD) isn't even device dependency.

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>"ALL SKYDIVERS ARE DEVICE DEPENDENT!"

Agreed. The best and safest skydivers, IMO, are dependent on as few devices as possible.

Sweet! I currently have no AAD and often jump with no visual or audible altimeter.

There are jumpers who will not jump without an audible in each ear and a visual altimeter on each wrist. While none of these do anything would you call the jumper “device dependent”? Once you get past a main, reserve and a harness/container everything else can be looked at as added fluff.

Sparky

not willing to do a jump has nothing to do with device dependency especially when refering to to an aad.

The inability to navigate with a map and relying on a GPS would qualify as device dependent.

Reserves are optional, ever heard of base jumping

After hearing from several people who insist their choice to jump or not jump with certain pieces of gear maybe I was a little harsh with such a blanket statement. I've just heard from too many people recently, especially lower time jumpers, saying they will not jump without a AAD. Seems most of them do not truely understand what an AAD does and doesn't do. They assume if they fuck up their AAD will open their reserve for them. Or they use it as a justification for doing certain kinds of jumps since they have a back up, their AAD. That really irks the crap out of me. An AAD will NOT open your reserve. It should NOT be relied upon to save you. You and you alone are responsible for saving yourself each and every jump.

If you understand the ins and outs of your gear, and there are plenty who don't, and make certain choices of when to jump and with what, then I don't call that device dependency. But rather informed choices to accept varying levels of risk and circumstances. It's just that an informed decision is not readily distringuished from an ignorant decision.

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No other piece of gear does anything by itself, including your rig.

I totally disagree.

My canopy opens by itself. I do nothing to take the canopy out of the D-bag and unflake it and get it into the air to fly.

The slider comes down the lines by itself. Well that and the opening canopy.

My visual altimeter displays the altitude by itself.

My audible altimeter gives me warning sounds by itself.

After I press the record button on my camera, it continues to record the skydive by itself.

My helmet stays on my head by itself.

My rig stays on my back by itself. (I don't physically have to hold either of these on during a skydive.)

etc...

[end of sarcasm]

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No other piece of gear does anything by itself, including your rig.

I totally disagree.

My canopy opens by itself. I do nothing to take the canopy out of the D-bag and unflake it and get it into the air to fly.

The slider comes down the lines by itself. Well that and the opening canopy.

Try not pulling. I wanna see your magical auto-canopy in action.

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Reserves are optional, ever heard of base jumping

After hearing from several people who insist their choice to jump or not jump with certain pieces of gear maybe I was a little harsh with such a blanket statement. I've just heard from too many people recently, especially lower time jumpers, saying they will not jump without a AAD. Seems most of them do not truely understand what an AAD does and doesn't do. They assume if they fuck up their AAD will open their reserve for them. Or they use it as a justification for doing certain kinds of jumps since they have a back up, their AAD. That really irks the crap out of me. An AAD will NOT open your reserve. It should NOT be relied upon to save you. You and you alone are responsible for saving yourself each and every jump.

If you understand the ins and outs of your gear, and there are plenty who don't, and make certain choices of when to jump and with what, then I don't call that device dependency. But rather informed choices to accept varying levels of risk and circumstances. It's just that an informed decision is not readily distringuished from an ignorant decision.

That seems kind of counter intuitive. I believe that is what they are designed to do. I know, I know, they don't open the reserve, they cut the closing loop.....which the vast majority of the time will lead to a successful reserve deployment, no? How is that any different than saying pulling the silver handle will not open the reserve, but rather removes the pin from the closing loop. I understand your point, but I don't think you can definitively state the AAD will not open your reserve. It begins a chain of actions that is likely to lead to an open reserve by cutting the loop and I think it's fair to call that "opening the reserve".

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Reserves are optional, ever heard of BASE jumping

Base Jumping is not skydiving. And yes I have heard of it, have even done it.

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An AAD will NOT open your reserve.

Read post #90 of this thread.

Sparky

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Reserves are optional, ever heard of BASE jumping

Base Jumping is not skydiving. And yes I have heard of it, have even done it.

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An AAD will NOT open your reserve.

Read post #90 of this thread.

Sparky

I was joking on the base reply, hence the

As to #90 exactly how I feel.

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Reserves are optional, ever heard of base jumping

After hearing from several people who insist their choice to jump or not jump with certain pieces of gear maybe I was a little harsh with such a blanket statement. I've just heard from too many people recently, especially lower time jumpers, saying they will not jump without a AAD. Seems most of them do not truely understand what an AAD does and doesn't do. They assume if they fuck up their AAD will open their reserve for them. Or they use it as a justification for doing certain kinds of jumps since they have a back up, their AAD. That really irks the crap out of me. An AAD will NOT open your reserve. It should NOT be relied upon to save you. You and you alone are responsible for saving yourself each and every jump.

If you understand the ins and outs of your gear, and there are plenty who don't, and make certain choices of when to jump and with what, then I don't call that device dependency. But rather informed choices to accept varying levels of risk and circumstances. It's just that an informed decision is not readily distringuished from an ignorant decision.

+1
My philosophy exactly.

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+1
My philosophy exactly. I jump with an old timer who saids, "If this sport was as safe as possible, everybody would be doing it." While I do wish the sport to grow, I do feel that low time jumpers get a false sense of security with an AAD in some cases. I like the fact that I have to save my life everytime I jump. Occum might agree with me that the simplest rig is the most reliable.

An old time jumper named “Dirty Ed” was fond of saying “If this sport is so fucking safe how come all my friends are dead”.
The more layers of complexity you add the gear the more chances you have to screw something up. KISS.
Why do want the sport to grow. Growth brings with it attitude and chaos. Look what happened to skiing with all the growth and going main stream.

Sparky