Meet Stan the Student (long)

''Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting'' - unless you kill yourself before it gets corrected!

If somebody is ''willing to kill himself'' because of his ignorance or stupidity, do you seriously think you should let him?
That's just plain wrong. You should stop it if you have any power or authority to do so.
That person might be pissed at you but he will thank you later...guaranteed.

You should educate, but skills are acquired gradually as you jump.

BTW. Stan is a tool with a bad attitude, ignorant AND stupid, and should not be allowed to jump under his terms.

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>Four 19 year olds have competed in F1 Grand Prix races. No-one told
>them they couldn't drive an F1 car until they were older.

Cool! Could a six year old?

Certainly there are 6 year olds who could drive an F1 car.

Unfortunately, it is not likely that they could do so well - or for very long.

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''Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting'' - unless you kill yourself before it gets corrected!

That can be the correction for that person and then as an example for others. The biggest problem with stupidity is we continue to try and "treat" it.

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If somebody is ''willing to kill himself'' because of his ignorance or stupidity, do you seriously think you should let him?
That's just plain wrong. You should stop it if you have any power or authority to do so.
That person might be pissed at you but he will thank you later...guaranteed.

It's called free will. People can try to stop them but its not always effective. Unless they see or their ego lets them admit to the error of their ways stopping them beforehand does not mean they'll thank you later nor should gratitude even be a reason one does it.

Should we try and stop them? Sure. Friends, family, the local dropzone can try. Must we stop them at a national level? No, nor is is possible or reasonable to think we can "save everyone."

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You should educate, but skills are acquired gradually as you jump.

BTW. Stan is a tool with a bad attitude, ignorant AND stupid, and should not be allowed to jump under his terms.

Agreed. What's one of the first skills we learn? Relax. Don't try to hurry as it's only counter productive. This applies to all aspects of skydiving as well as what we're discussing here: camera flying, downsizing, wingsuiting.
The whole point is try to show someone they are wrong versus simply telling them or trying to forbid them.

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It's called free will. People can try to stop them but its not always effective. Unless they see or their ego lets them admit to the error of their ways stopping them beforehand does not mean they'll thank you later nor should gratitude even be a reason one does it.

Kinda hard for them to thank you after they're dead.

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The whole point is try to show someone they are wrong versus simply telling them or trying to forbid them.

It doesn't work.
I agree with you in theory. In practice it doesn't work. All one has to do is look at the small camera thread, the wingsuit threads, or the swooping threads.
Too many newer jumpers think the incident stats don't apply to them and no amount of talking will change their minds.

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It doesn't always work.
I agree with you in theory. In practice it doesn't always work. All one has to do is look at the small camera thread, the wingsuit threads, or the swooping threads.
Too many newer jumpers think the incident stats don't apply to them and no amount of talking will change their minds.

Fixed it. Additionally neither will BSRs always work.

There are going to always be those that die or get injured no matter what the "rules" are.

One dropzone I was at a few years ago there were 3-4 new dudes that I pegged as DGITs and purposely didn't get to know them for a while for that reason as they were hard headed, cocky, but with some insane natural talent. They survived the curve though.

I think we need to stop trying to "scare" these new jumpers, but lay out the facts and the possible consequences. Is it a bad idea? Yes. Is it certain death? No.

Spot, I do appreciate all you've done and continue to do as well as given to and for this sport, but thinking BSRs that some dropzones don't enforce because S&TA's don't have any real authority to do so is the answer and will save everyone from themselves...

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It doesn't always work.
I agree with you in theory. In practice it doesn't always work. All one has to do is look at the small camera thread, the wingsuit threads, or the swooping threads.
Too many newer jumpers think the incident stats don't apply to them and no amount of talking will change their minds.

Fixed it. Additionally neither will BSRs always work.

There are going to always be those that die or get injured no matter what the "rules" are.

One dropzone I was at a few years ago there were 3-4 new dudes that I pegged as DGITs and purposely didn't get to know them for a while for that reason as they were hard headed, cocky, but with some insane natural talent. They survived the curve though.

I think we need to stop trying to "scare" these new jumpers, but lay out the facts and the possible consequences. Is it a bad idea? Yes. Is it certain death? No.

Spot, I do appreciate all you've done and continue to do as well as given to and for this sport, but thinking BSRs that some dropzones don't enforce because S&TA's don't have any real authority to do so is the answer and will save everyone from themselves...

Nor does the 55 mile an hour speed limit save everyone from a speed-related death, but it does help reduce the ratio.
There will ALWAYS be some asshat calling himself an "instructor" willing to take $$$$ from a newbie without regard for the other person's safety.
Education won't help anyone in those situations either.
I'm a huge fan of education. I worked my ass off with a team of pretty great people to get a WSI rating vs a BSR. It wasn't until a manufacturer interested only in $$ stopped the effort that a BSR was the next best thing. I still think the BSR wasn't the right answer but it was better than an absence of any answer.
One of the reasons I've aligned with PF is that Robert recognizes the need for strong training with forced recurrency vs the BS that's been happening over the past years where some "instructors" got their ratings over email, beer, etc.
The new PFC program emulates the USPA methodology in almost every aspect and it brings a new level of modern methods with an eye towards bigger suits that folks seem to be gravitating towards earlier and earlier. The idea is that once the opposing manufacturer is completely out of business, we can eventually return to the BOD with a rating proposal. We did get the new syllabus into the SIM, however. Maybe that will help.

Education is indeed the key, but sometimes you first gotta smack em' over the head with a bat before you can get their attention.

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Nor does the 55 mile an hour speed limit save everyone from a speed-related death, but it does help reduce the ratio.

More due to advances in technology such as airbags vs the police revenue source tickets bring in.

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BSR's are not the answer, but they are viewed as a quick fix. If someone doesn't like something rather than understand why and attempt to unbiasly educate, they just make it "illegal." This way when it continues to happen they can just say those people are wrong and maybe occasionally bust someone for breaking the law so they think they're making a difference.

Give the people the knowledge so they can make their own decisions. Try to explain the risk as well. If they decide to proceed the same path anyways, so be it. They roll the dice and take their chances.

Conversely if a DZO or vendor decides to self impose limits, that's their choice. Forcing them to stifles the both the free market and free will. There are already DZs out there with various restrictions already that either the DZO decided on or his customer base requested.

Let's take the aforementioned case in point.
Dan Kulpa.
Knew the recommendations.
Chose to circumvent them. Was turned down by two very professional and seasoned Instructors (Both are AFFI's, hence the lack of "quotes"0.
He found an "instructor" that was willing to play table to Dan's rolled dice. "Instructor" didn't fulfill even the most basic obligations of any Coach, but Dan trusted him and himself in this game of chance.
Dan died on that jump over a 40.00 bet.
A BSR in place would have saved him, and/or would have provided a punitive opportunity for the "instructor" that helped Dan kill himself.
There are other cases eerily similar in wingsuiting. There are other cases somewhat similar in camera flying. There are far too many cases similar in canopy piloting.
BSR's may not be the answer, but providing information and good education sure aren't working either.

Doug,

Based on what you have previously posted about Dan, it not at all clear that having 200 jumps would have saved him. Having an impartial evaluation of his abilities and awareness might have.

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it not at all clear that having 200 jumps would have saved him. Having an impartial evaluation of his abilities and awareness might have.

Maybe so.
Putting his gear on properly would have.
Who's fault is that?
What BSR would prevent it?
Students need protection.
Most of us agree with that.
This thread started about a guy that isn't even a student yet, but now we're talking about licensed skydivers.
How far should we go to protect them from themselves?
How about a BSR about how to put your rig on?
No, I don't want a BSR about how to put your rig on.