sharpfive 0 #26 November 17, 2002 Not an unusual question, and you never know if you don't ask. I knew some jumpers that would put together a biplane. The bottom jumper would cutaway and open a tertiary reserve strapped to his belly. The second jumper would then fly the biplane solo, feet firmly in the risers of the canopy below, and actually land it. You definitely need to make lots of jumps before trying that! Blue skies Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #27 November 17, 2002 Crazydude ... please excuse my friends ... and yes, if your reserve is due for a repak, you SHOULD pull it yourself ... just not during a skydive! In the safe and controlled environment of the hanger, or wherever you and your skydiving pals hang when you are waiting to jump, you should, under the supervision of the rigger who is going to re-pak your reserve or an instructor, yank both your handles! This will familiarize you with what it will feel like if/when you actually DO have to do it in the air one day! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CrazyIvan 0 #28 November 17, 2002 See?, these are the answers I always treasure, brief and to the point. Thanks man__________________________________________ Blue Skies and May the Force be with you. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Iflyme 0 #29 November 17, 2002 Anytime... "Luke ... I am your Father..." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,822 #30 November 17, 2002 >If you 'very well know that the RESERVE is the last resort', then why > ask the question? Why even suggest that anyone might want to > consider doing a jump and ignoring their main parachute? I would. I jump with one canopy often (BASE) and my reserve is packed as carefully as my BASE main. I would have no hesitation using either my main or reserve as my 'primary' parachute (although I don't like the expense and wear/tear of using my reserve instead of my main.) That being said, I don't recommend it as a matter of course. If you do want to try it, it's a good idea to do under controlled circumstances (i.e. with a tertiary reserve on a planned dive.) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #31 November 17, 2002 QuoteI would. I jump with one canopy often (BASE) and my reserve is packed as carefully as my BASE main. I would have no hesitation using either my main or reserve as my 'primary' parachute (although I don't like the expense and wear/tear of using my reserve instead of my main.) That being said, I don't recommend it as a matter of course. If you do want to try it, it's a good idea to do under controlled circumstances (i.e. with a tertiary reserve on a planned dive.) Bill, BASE is a completely different story, and I believe irrelevant to this particular conversation. I'm curious, if you jumped and deployed your 'normal' reserve parachute, what would you do in the event that it malfunctioned? Suppose it put you into a violent spin, is your tertiary going to help? How do you plan to remedy that particular situation? - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazy 0 #32 November 17, 2002 Quoteif I'm due to get my reserve re-packed, may I jump and deploy my reserve instead of my main? I know quite a few people who regularly have an intentional cutaway/reserve ride with their usual rig and nohing else. These people are not specially daredevils nor irresponsible. They just trust their rigger and their equipment. I'm surprised that you got so much shit on this forun, for your question, first, because many skydivers do things much worse, second, because BASE seems welcome (and BASE is a few steps ahead of jumping a reserve). So, to answer your question, of course don't do it now, but in a few hundred jumps you will have the knowledge to make up your own decision. It's nothing specially silly; if it was that silly, it would be silly to go skydiving anyway. If you don't trust your reserve when everything is fine, how can you rely on it to save you when you are in deep shit? If you can't, why would you put yourself deliberately in a situation where you will need it (yes, reserve rides are a significant part of skydiving)? bb -- Come [beer adjudicator] skydiveasia.org Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #33 November 17, 2002 QuoteI know quite a few people who regularly have an intentional cutaway/reserve ride with their usual rig and nohing else. These people are not specially daredevils nor irresponsible. They just trust their rigger and their equipment. Doing this without a third reserve is a mistake in my opinion. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a jumper in MOST situations to cut away a perfectly functioning canopy when there are no promises that the reserve will function. QuoteI'm surprised that you got so much shit on this forun, for your question, first, because many skydivers do things much worse, second, because BASE seems welcome (and BASE is a few steps ahead of jumping a reserve). BASE is a completely different sport with completely different rules and a completely different understanding or acceptance of risk. It doesn't compare to skydiving. QuoteIf you don't trust your reserve when everything is fine, how can you rely on it to save you when you are in deep shit? If you can't, why would you put yourself deliberately in a situation where you will need it (yes, reserve rides are a significant part of skydiving)? Do you trust your reserve so much that you would be willing to skydive with ONLY your reserve? I don't. Look at only one year ago when a good portion of the Raven resreves were recalled. They're not perfect, they DO fail, and unfortunately when they do we do not have an easy way to get rid of them and deploy yet another parachite. The reserve is your last chance. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDaemon 0 #34 November 17, 2002 Your question is a good question and despite frustrations you're experiencing in receiving answer, try to distill out the worthwhile information from billvon, iflyme, and others and avoid taking the egotistical preaching from the other forum participants personally. They might actually be trying to help, even though their methods are ineffective and have side effects that might destroy your interest in ever asking questions again. If you are like most people your eyes glance over someone's post that is written with obvious condescension, you will scroll past it and feel bad. I am sad I don't have more to offer, but keep your mind spinning and use this experience to remind yourself to be better than them, when you have an answer to someone else's question. Lead by example. I talked to my master rigger awhile ago about doing an intentional cutaway. His recommendation was that I receive the appropriate belly mount reserve (tertiary), train with it on the ground so I would be prepared for an emergency in the air. We talked about the mental focus required to make the cutaway and pull the reserve, radioing up to another jumper asking them to follow the main, and letting people know what I was about to do. I recommend talking to a master rigger and jumpmaster about their recommendations for what you should do, but always remember, (as you should on every jump) that you have a lot of equipment designed to save your life, and pushing the limits increases your risk. It's your own life, and the consequences of your actions are yours. Good luck :-)find / -name jumpers -print; cat jumpers $USER > manifest; cd /dev/airplane; more altitude; make jump; cd /pub; more beer; Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazy 0 #35 November 17, 2002 QuoteDoing this without a third reserve is a mistake in my opinion. It doesn't make a lot of sense for a jumper in MOST situations to cut away a perfectly functioning canopy when there are no promises that the reserve will function. even with 3 canopies you would have no promise to survive. It's not about certainty, it's about evaluating risks and deciding which are acceptable. If you think that a cutaway/reserve in the perfect conditions (stable, very low speed, high altitude...) is not an acceptable risk, then why would you do something that will put you in such a deep shit that you will need that reserve in much worse conditions (high speed, low altitude, unstable...)? The other thing is the value of a cutaway and reserve ride in a skydiver's experience. Again, it's a personal evaluation. You can dismiss it and claim that it has no real value. Some people think differently (a cutaway can even be a requirement for some tandem ratings). In most cases, it's almost impossible to get a proper setup with 3 canopies, so there are not many other choices than your own rig, when your reserve is due for repack. bb-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
franck102 0 #36 November 17, 2002 CrazyIvan, I didn't mean to be sarcastic with my initialreply, I just don't have the experience to give a final answer. After reading the other posts though, I'm a bit surprised by the number of "if you don't trust your reserve why jump in the first place". This is all about statistics, if both your canopies work 4999 out of 5000 times pulling your reserve instead of your main makes your skydive 5000 times more dangerous... I personally would think twice about that -) Franck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #37 November 17, 2002 And jumping is 5000 times more dangerous than not jumping. Why would you jump out of a perfectly good airplane at all? In fact, why not just stay home and watch tv? Oh right. We do it because we each decide the risk is acceptably small compared to the rewards. Some jumpers do things I wouldn't risk because the reward is worth it to them. Other jumpers are more conservative than me because my risks are unacceptable to them. Isn't personal responsibility great? First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ernokaikkonen 0 #38 November 17, 2002 Quote I know quite a few people who regularly have an intentional cutaway/ reserve ride with their usual rig and nohing else. Without commenting on how sensible doing that would be: Just to remind that in many countries this is forbidden in the aviation regulations. Looks like the authorities have nothing against it in Singapore. I know I'd be in serious trouble if I did it here in Finland, and I'd assume it wouldn't be a good idea in the States either. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crazy 0 #39 November 18, 2002 QuoteAfter reading the other posts though, I'm a bit surprised by the number of "if you don't trust your reserve why jump in the first place". This is all about statistics, if both your canopies work 4999 out of 5000 times pulling your reserve instead of your main makes your skydive 5000 times more dangerous It's not about jumping the reserve or the main on every single jump for 5000 jumps. It's about one reserve ride and evaluating the risk of that specific reserve ride in different contexts. The first case is the intentional cutaway/reserve in a controlled environment, the second case is the wild reserve ride that you will most probably have within the next 500 jumps. Obviously, the first one is significantly less hazardous. So, if you think that accepting the first one is a stupid mistake, then you ought to have a very good reason to accept the second one. If your only reason is that you are an adrenaline junkie and that you are craving for these 500 jumps, well, admit that you're disjointed on this one and keep the fun skydiving. If you like stats, compare the risk to kill yourself, for instance landing your main, with the risk to die because the reserve failed (a real reserve failure, like blown cells or broken lines, not an entanglement, a horseshoe or a no pull), particularly after an intentional cataway. Don't be too surprised if the conclusion is that an intentional cutaway is not significantly more dangerous than landing a main (depending on the source, might even seem safer). Besides, overestimating the risk of a reserve ride to a ridiculously irrealistic level (5000 times more dangerous) might compromise your own safety: you might try to fix a serious problem with your main or your PC for a too long time before deciding to use your reserve. Then it will be too late. If you don't trust your reserve, why jump in the first place? bb-- Come Skydive Asia Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #40 November 18, 2002 QuoteIf you don't trust your reserve, why jump in the first place? I do trust my reserve, as much as I trust my main. My main has opened perfectly over 300 times since the last time it didn't. I know that reserves malfunction, one only needs to look at the incident reports to understand this as fact. I also know that there's no sense in trading a perfectly functioning parachute for a parachute that _might_ work, for a parachute that will _probably_ work. It's just not worth it. Speaking of reserve malfunctions, one only needs to look to our very own Incidents forum. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rdutch 0 #41 November 18, 2002 QuoteThank you all for your replies. Wow, I didn't know a little question could cause all this. For the record: I WAS ONLY ASKING, I don't want you people to think I'm a total moron or a loser, I'm just a box full of questions, that's all. In no way are you a moron. This is a legitimate question. A lot of people are curious about this, and I have actually seen people do this. I really dont reccomend this to anyone to try, and the people that I know have done this would never try it again, after they found out how dangerous it is. The whole reason for having a reserve is to have a backup if something goes wrong. As others have said: Reserves arent 100% guaranteed to open and you cant cut them away if they dont work. I see a lot of intentional cutaways at my Dz. But all of them have rigs specially designed for it. They have 3 canopies and 2 cut away systems. If you want to try a cutaway and reserve deployment, do it on the ground, I actually recomend it. I deploy my reserve every repack. Keep safe and Blue one's. Ray Small and fast what every girl dreams of! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
franck102 0 #42 November 18, 2002 QuoteQuoteAfter reading the other posts though, I'm a bit surprised by the number of "if you don't trust your reserve why jump in the first place". This is all about statistics, if both your canopies work 4999 out of 5000 times pulling your reserve instead of your main makes your skydive 5000 times more dangerous It's not about jumping the reserve or the main on every single jump for 5000 jumps. It's about one reserve ride and evaluating the risk of that specific reserve ride in different contexts. The first case is the intentional cutaway/reserve in a controlled environment, the second case is the wild reserve ride that you will most probably have within the next 500 jumps. Obviously, the first one is significantly less hazardous. So, if you think that accepting the first one is a stupid mistake, then you ought to have a very good reason to accept the second one. First I didn't call anything a "stupid mistake" - I am just giving my newbie's opinion. Second yes,I accept the 1/500 chance of having the "wild" unplanned ride, and I wouldn't accept the 1/1 chance of having a planned reserve ride with no backup. QuoteIf you like stats, compare the risk to kill yourself, for instance landing your main, with the risk to die because the reserve failed (a real reserve failure, like blown cells or broken lines, not an entanglement, a horseshoe or a no pull), particularly after an intentional cataway. Don't be too surprised if the conclusion is that an intentional cutaway is not significantly more dangerous than landing a main (depending on the source, might even seem safer). Agree. The difference is that I can choose not to make a deliberate reserve ride without losing much of the fun I get from skydiving. QuoteBesides, overestimating the risk of a reserve ride to a ridiculously irrealistic level (5000 times more dangerous) might compromise your own safety: you might try to fix a serious problem with your main or your PC for a too long time before deciding to use your reserve. Then it will be too late. Not sure what you mean here. I picked 5000 out of the blue, make it 500 (one cutaway needed every 500 normal jumps) if you prefer. Then assume if you pull your reserve 5000 time you get a landable canopy 4999 times. With those numbers stepping out of the plane and pulling your reserve is 500 times more dangerous than pulling your main. True, this means that a single planned reserve ride isn't more dangerous than 500 jumps - it's just that given the choice I'll take the 500 jumps -) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,822 #43 November 18, 2002 >I'm curious, if you jumped and deployed your 'normal' reserve parachute, what > would you do in the event that it malfunctioned? As that is a common scenario (i.e. that's exactly what I would do if I had to bail out at a low altitude, or couldn't find my main handle) I've thought about it a lot. My standard answer is that I'd try to hack it away with my knife and then try my main, but the realistic answer is that I would die. >Suppose it put you into a violent spin, is your tertiary going to help? If I had a tertiary? Sure! Rounds will give you a good shot at survival, even in a violent spin. They are much better than squares when dealing with a two-out scenario. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,822 #44 November 18, 2002 >even with 3 canopies you would have no promise to survive. Good point, and there is some evidence that that third canopy might hurt more than it will help. It changes your reserve procedures and makes your rig much more complicated. It is this complexity that killed Rob Harris, for example - he died when he performed an out-of-sequence cutaway on a cutaway rig. Had he been using a standard rig it's likely he would have survived. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
michaeljanzen 0 #45 November 18, 2002 Here is my question - if jumping and pulling your reserve before trying your main is so dangerous why are students told " in case of a low altitude plane emergency put your hands on the reserve handle, get out, and as you pass the tail pull the reserve" why don't we teach to go for the main? Isn't the reserve inspected and repacked by a rigger every 120 days and the main is just repacked by the owner? seems to me that the reserve would be more reliable than the main. if it's not why the hell am i trusting my life to it in case i have a bad day and do a shitty pack job. "the sweet just aint as sweet without the bitter " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Jimbo 0 #46 November 18, 2002 Quote Here is my question - if jumping and pulling your reserve before trying your main is so dangerous why are students told " in case of a low altitude plane emergency put your hands on the reserve handle, get out, and as you pass the tail pull the reserve" why don't we teach to go for the main? Because at that point the reserve is your best option for survival. During a low altitude escape you need a parachute over your head immediatly, you could easily burn up 600 ft or more with a modern main, the reserve parachute is designed to open in less than 300 I believe. QuoteIsn't the reserve inspected and repacked by a rigger every 120 days and the main is just repacked by the owner? seems to me that the reserve would be more reliable than the main. You are correct, the reserve is repacked by a rigger every 120 days, so what? Riggers are human and make mistakes, just like you and me. Do you think people with malfunctioning mains packed them to malfunction intentionally? Quoteif it's not why the hell am i trusting my life to it in case i have a bad day and do a shitty pack job. When you use your reserve it is your last chance at survival, it needs to work. Other than that there's no other reason you're trusting your life to it. You didn't think that the reserve parachute never malfunctioned did you? See my post above with a link to a fatality due at least in part to a reserve malfunction. - Jim"Like" - The modern day comma Good bye, my friends. You are missed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,351 #47 November 18, 2002 I'm with the folks who say it's not the most dangerous thing in the world. It's a parachute. But dumping your reserve first deliberately it does eat up a whole lot of safety percentage, because you're eating away your backup. Another consideration is cost. You might lose your freebag, you might damage your reserve, and opening it will almost certainly reduce its value if you should decide to sell it. And all of those things would suck. Not to mention you'd have to either: a. lie and tell everyone about your total/whatever, and maybe someone would call you an idiot for not dumping you rmain or whatever b. tell them the truth and get a really stern talking-to from someone, and maybe grounded. Wendy W. Remember: The only stupid question is: Is it true that your skin peels off if you go fast enough in freefall.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
franck102 0 #48 November 18, 2002 Quote Isn't the reserve inspected and repacked by a rigger every 120 days and the main is just repacked by the owner? seems to me that the reserve would be more reliable than the main. It sure is. Here are your options (I'm making up the numbers): A. Try main only: 1 chance in 500 to have a pb B. Try reserve only: 1 chance in 5000 to have a pb C. Try main, if it fails try reserve: 1 chance in 500x5000 to have a pb. Plan C only works if you have enough altitude to carry out the plan, hence the advice to go for plan B if too low. Franck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
michaeljanzen 0 #49 November 18, 2002 You didn't think that the reserve parachute never malfunctioned did you? _________________________________________________ I realize your reserve can malfunction i was only saying your main is more likely to malfunction than your reserve. "the sweet just aint as sweet without the bitter " Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,822 #50 November 18, 2002 >Isn't the reserve inspected and repacked by a rigger every 120 days and the >main is just repacked by the owner? Yes, although in some cases those two people are the same person. >seems to me that the reserve would be more reliable than the main. In general, yes, but . . . >if it's not why the hell am i trusting my life to it in case i have a bad day > and do a shitty pack job. Because the odds of you and your rigger having a shitty day at the same time are low. You could pack your own reserve and have a similar safety record, provided you know what you're doing (i.e. got some help doing it.) This is not because a rigger can pack so much better than you can, but that you can pack an acceptably low number of mals. Example - let's say you pack a mal 1 in 300 jumps. That's pretty careless - most experienced jumpers I know are well above 1 in 500 on their pack jobs. If you packed your own reserve with the _same_ level of care (i.e. to get that same 1 in 300 mal rate) you could make 90,000 jumps before having a good shot at a double mal. That's 1800 a year, or 70 a weekend for a weekend jumper, for someone jumping for 50 years. And that's if you spend no extra care on your reserve, and assuming the reserve deployment system is no more reliable than the main. Given that most people spend _more_ time on their reserves, and the reserve deployment system is _more_ reliable than the main, you get the sort of reliability levels we see in modern skydiving. That's not to say it won't happen - with so many million jumps being made every year, you are eventually going to see the result of random chance. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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