Pilot 7 vs PD Horizon?

9 hours ago, voilsb said:

Interesting opinions on the Storm. Now, I'm only one man, but I've put between 800 and 1,000 jumps on my Storm while wearing a wingsuit. I've had a total of two line twists, both of which were 360. One time I almost had line twists, it started to give me a 180 twist, but it cleared before the opening finished. Other than that, nothing.

I do frequently have less than a 90 degree off heading opening, and occasionally it'll open off heading more than that, but 99.8% of the time there are no line twists, and probably 90% of the time they are completely uneventful openings.

This is on a Storm 150 loaded at 1.6:1, with 3 different linesets: factory dacron, ThrillInc custom 300lb dacron, and HMA from Simon Wade. Wingsuits have been mostly Phantom 2/3, and Vampire 4, Freak, Magister.

I have  quite a few videos of people trying to kick twist out in their Storm's ending up in rapid spins on their back then cutt'ing. Too many to ignore this as a fact. Other canopy designs at same wl would have a tendency to hang just still above head and let people kick those twists out. We so have a few guys (2 I believe) left in their Storms flying them at a little lower wl and they are fine apparently. I did 300ish jumps on my Storm 150 at wl 1.6 and although I myself never had to cutt it, I can tell you I did some saves by acting quickly in a frenzy almost, if not it would had gone spinning, Flying competition suits made  deployments too exciting. So in my case I switched to the Winx same size and I dont even look up and check the canopy anymore at deployment, I feel the snatch from the PC, the line stretch, the "unboxing" the inflation, in my shoulders and it is consistant every time. In 500 jumps I have had a few twists comming from bad deployments, bad toss of the PC or wrong speed - and the canopy just stays still on top of my head. I know of one guy here who had a few chops on his Winx, he was at a high wl, so he upsized to a one size larger Winx and went with hybrid material thus keeping packvol same size and he loves it (now). I will just reiterate that a wingsuit flight with friends chasing clouds in 3D or whatever is super fun and mindblowing and exhausting after many minuttes of actionpacked adventure. When it comes to the deployment I want to have a canopy I trust almost 100. Getting a canopy that has been evolved a little more towards wingsuiting, is a very good idea indeed and I highly recommend it to everyone. The Winx or the Pilot7 are the way to go in the skydiving environment IMO and I highly recommend people try demos. If you are on a low budget or want a cheapish 2nd canopy then the Sabre1's or better the Triathlon's are absolutely great.

On 2/1/2019 at 8:09 PM, 20kN said:

Sure, but did you try cutting it away from madly diving linetwists while spinning on your back? Any canopy will work just fine under optimal environments. I once knew a guy who wingsuited on occasion with a Valkyrie 96. Just because it works okay when the conditions are aligned for it to work well does not mean it's ideal. The whole point in 7 cell specific WS canopies are they are intended to open well under poor conditions and remain somewhat stable or docile in extreme linetwists, which is not likely at a high WL, not even with a 7 cell.

Not seeing much sense in comparing Valkyrie 96 and WinX ( even though both are 7-cells ).

Have done hundreds of jumps on 1.75 wingloading with 9-cells - pilot and sabre (and occasionally 7-cells WinX, Kraken etc) and experienced also some mad linetwists. Never, ever experienced any crazy spinning - on the contrary, all the canopies were flying just straight.

So what I'm saying is that if all manufacturers (except SQ) recommend certain WL for a type of canopy, you will be fine also with SQ canopy with that WL. Especially if we talk about your WL of around 1.1 - 1.2 (can't imagine a 7 cell not-crossbraced, non elliptical that would have any hard or even semi-hard spinning with that WL)

Squirrel's max WL recommendation of 1,18 for 190sqft or 1 for 210sqft seems to me more like a protection against lawsuit rather than actual maximum range.

But of course it's your decision, so not trying to convince you to buy anything that you are not comfortable with. 

13 hours ago, skow said:

Squirrel's max WL recommendation of 1,18 for 190sqft or 1 for 210sqft seems to me more like a protection against lawsuit rather than actual maximum range.

I've been wondering if they've been doing this, and I'm glad someone finally put it into words. Like I said earlier when someone asked why I was debating only between the Pilot 7 and the WinX, it's that I love Squirrel but their wing loading chart said I can't fit into the size I need, and the next size up won't fit into my container.

However after looking into other options, I noticed that Squirrel's max-flight weight was WAY below all the others. I think they top out at 231lbs, where almost all other canopies go up to 260lbs at least. Like the Epicene Pro 210 has an "Expert" rating at 231lbs, but has a max-flight weight of also 231lbs? Idk personally the Epicene Pro would have been my first choice because all I need is 10/10 openings (when technique is done properly), and because I like Squirrel and everyone is allowed to like what they like, but it looks like it's not happening with that canopy for me.

You might consider looking for a used Epicene then. The used market is always pretty flush with inexpensive sq gear, and might be worth trying for the right price. I'd guess that most people getting a sponsored Epicene Pro will be looking to unload their old canopy.

What would you guys recommend about loading an OG Epicene above the listed "Max-Flight" weight? The largest Epicene I can fit into my container is a 190, which is also two sizes larger than what I have now (Sabre 1 150). I currently weigh 250lbs in flight (I need to lose weight), which puts me at a WL of 1.32. Though that's above the "max-flight" weight, that WL doesn't seem bad at all too me. Matter of fact, it's much better than the 1.66WL I'm at now.

Is this something you guys would recommend? Does a low-bulk WS canopy such as the Epicene handle "above max-weight" as well as typical 9 cell ZP canopies do?

*I realize now that this thread has strayed far off course from the original topic.

2 hours ago, Johnkelley said:

What would you guys recommend about loading an OG Epicene above the listed "Max-Flight" weight? The largest Epicene I can fit into my container is a 190, which is also two sizes larger than what I have now (Sabre 1 150). I currently weigh 250lbs in flight (I need to lose weight), which puts me at a WL of 1.32. Though that's above the "max-flight" weight, that WL doesn't seem bad at all too me. Matter of fact, it's much better than the 1.66WL I'm at now.

Is this something you guys would recommend? Does a low-bulk WS canopy such as the Epicene handle "above max-weight" as well as typical 9 cell ZP canopies do?

*I realize now that this thread has strayed far off course from the original topic.

You should ask the Squirrel guys, but my hunch is it is a no go. They don't want you to break your ankles because you will eventially have to jump at a different DZ at elevation, then add zero wind and hot temparatures conditions; ouchh. You really need a larger container mate  

Swoop it. It’s essentially just a reserve. I’m over the weight limit on my 120 reserve and it lands like shit if you fly it straight in so I grab the fronts on it. Build up some speed and I don’t think you’ll have anything to worry about on a 190

6 hours ago, Johnkelley said:

What would you guys recommend about loading an OG Epicene above the listed "Max-Flight" weight? The largest Epicene I can fit into my container is a 190, which is also two sizes larger than what I have now (Sabre 1 150). I currently weigh 250lbs in flight (I need to lose weight), which puts me at a WL of 1.32. Though that's above the "max-flight" weight, that WL doesn't seem bad at all too me. Matter of fact, it's much better than the 1.66WL I'm at now.

Is this something you guys would recommend? Does a low-bulk WS canopy such as the Epicene handle "above max-weight" as well as typical 9 cell ZP canopies do?

*I realize now that this thread has strayed far off course from the original topic.

. 

16 minutes ago, skydave89 said:

Swoop it. It’s essentially just a reserve. I’m over the weight limit on my 120 reserve and it lands like shit if you fly it straight in so I grab the fronts on it. Build up some speed and I don’t think you’ll have anything to worry about on a 190

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yeah f... it. Don't mind those silly limits, lol they obviously didnt think of mad skill swoopers. While you're at it also exceed the limits on your reserve as well. It all adds spice to the action about to take place. Envision the heartpumping day you have that mailfunction on your main, what can be more spicy than ending up in a tiny tiny reserve that has line twists generated in the tens as you spun away from your cutt from that mailfunction, and then... the ready to rock and roll loaded reserve starts spinning you on your back, but offcourse. Yeah there is a few higly action packed videos on excactly this, but really they can be improved, you can create your own video and It's about challenging yourself man... And that small rig on you back - is so cool and sexy on the ground :-D 

Seriously, a small reserve is just not very clever the day it goes haywire

3 hours ago, birdynamnam said:

yeah f... it. Don't mind those silly limits, lol they obviously didnt think of mad skill swoopers. While you're at it also exceed the limits on your reserve as well. It all adds spice to the action about to take place. Envision the heartpumping day you have that mailfunction on your main, what can be more spicy than ending up in a tiny tiny reserve that has line twists generated in the tens as you spun away from your cutt from that mailfunction, and then... the ready to rock and roll loaded reserve starts spinning you on your back, but offcourse. Yeah there is a few higly action packed videos on excactly this, but really they can be improved, you can create your own video and It's about challenging yourself man... And that small rig on you back - is so cool and sexy on the ground :-D 

 

Seriously, a small reserve is just not very clever the day it goes haywire

It doesn’t take a ‘madly skilled swooper’ to understand that canopies, especially non-ZP canopies, land better when they’ve got a little speed. Not like you’ve gotta do a 720*, just do double fronts or a 90 and it’ll land much nicer. Also - he said it was a 1.3 WL, that’s not exactly excessive. 

13 hours ago, skydave89 said:

It doesn’t take a ‘madly skilled swooper’ to understand that canopies, especially non-ZP canopies, land better when they’ve got a little speed. Not like you’ve gotta do a 720*, just do double fronts or a 90 and it’ll land much nicer. Also - he said it was a 1.3 WL, that’s not exactly excessive. 

Having flown many non zp canopies, In my experience 1.3 it just too much. If the landingzone is busy you just cant do a 90 sometimes. So with non zp canopies I find it silly to not adhere to the manufactorers specs, just my 2 cents

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I have  quite a few videos of people trying to kick twist out in their Storm's ending up in rapid spins on their back then cutt'ing. Too many to ignore this as a fact.

I did a good 2000+ jumps on a Storm (150/135/120) without a single cutaway or twist.
Including many big suit jumps. And always jumped with a big crew in NL/BE on similar sizes Storms, and in my travels around the globe saw many wingsuit pilots fly the same, All with similar (happy) results.

Ive switched to the WinX as I liked the openings on that one better (softer, less aggressive) but would not say a single bad about the storm in what Ive seen everywhere. Surely when talking about Stiletto, Merit etc you are in the 'many cutaways' target group, but talking about the Storm like its a black death for WS does not ring well with what I've seen.

Ive seen more bruised ankles on some WS specific canopies due to poor flare, than Ive seen cutaways on Storms

But also have to say, Im mostly jumping a 170 (WinX) now, and loving that size.
I think for many people, a bit of an upsize would not hurt...regardless of canopy choice..

3 hours ago, mccordia said:

I did a good 2000+ jumps on a Storm (150/135/120) without a single cutaway or twist.
Including many big suit jumps. And always jumped with a big crew in NL/BE on similar sizes Storms, and in my travels around the globe saw many wingsuit pilots fly the same, All with similar (happy) results.

Ive switched to the WinX as I liked the openings on that one better (softer, less aggressive) but would not say a single bad about the storm in what Ive seen everywhere. Surely when talking about Stiletto, Merit etc you are in the 'many cutaways' target group, but talking about the Storm like its a black death for WS does not ring well with what I've seen.

Ive seen more bruised ankles on some WS specific canopies due to poor flare, than Ive seen cutaways on Storms

But also have to say, Im mostly jumping a 170 (WinX) now, and loving that size.
I think for many people, a bit of an upsize would not hurt...regardless of canopy choice..

+1 on the WinX-170...that's what I jump and I love it!

On 2/2/2019 at 4:35 AM, birdynamnam said:

I have  quite a few videos of people trying to kick twist out in their Storm's ending up in rapid spins on their back then cutt'ing. Too many to ignore this as a fact.

Thanks. Like I said, I've just never seen or heard of issues except for here. I wonder how much of it is wingsuit choice. I've only got a handful of jumps on suits larger than a V4. That might be where problems start to show up

I jumped a 120 Storm for about 15 jumps. 14 of those were the best wingsuit openings I’ve ever had. The other one convinced me it was only a matter of time until I chopped it. The friend I sold the Storm to chopped it within 20 jumps. Most of the time they’re great, but every once in a while they open with a significant turn that took a substantial rear riser input to stop. I thought I was crazy until I read a thread here on the forums of people reporting the same thing. I went to a smaller 9 cell and I’ve never had the same issue. 

56 minutes ago, skydave89 said:

I jumped a 120 Storm for about 15 jumps. 14 of those were the best wingsuit openings I’ve ever had. The other one convinced me it was only a matter of time until I chopped it. The friend I sold the Storm to chopped it within 20 jumps. Most of the time they’re great, but every once in a while they open with a significant turn that took a substantial rear riser input to stop. I thought I was crazy until I read a thread here on the forums of people reporting the same thing. I went to a smaller 9 cell and I’ve never had the same issue. 

yes this is exactly our experience

Here is a video of a guy having a chop on a Storm after a WS jump:

Note that on any canopy, you'll find people with anecdotal examples of them being shit or absolutely amazing.
I also have a friend who keeps swearing a vengeance 89 is the best WS canopy ever due to not having had chops.
Ive jumped a Stiletto with wingsuit without any issue as well.
There I think there is a few vocal people hating the canopy, but in the same way many people jump sponsored gear performing sub-par, while staying quiet about the results.

I know the few individuals unhappy, but think on a whole, Ive met a double dozen happy people per negative one with nothing buy glowing reviews on a Storm.

As said before, I am sponsored by Atair, jump a WinX. But think I could wholeheartedly recommend a storm based on my own experiences and what Ive seen around the globe

I've come to the conclusion there is no automatic awesome canopy.  I know people jumping 9 cells, one person's spectre is amazing while another person gets constant twists. Epicenes, horizons or a winx are not a guaranteed magic solution.  Skysnatchs, dynamic corners, semi stowless bags all help to reduce problems as well but are not a magic solution.  The best thing is if you worry about openings and get twists often is to see a wingsuit coach and get some video feedback.  I love getting just regular coaching to enhance skills and usually the coaches also film deployments as an added plus.  Keep striving to get better at your flying and openings and you can likely do it on the ones discussed here.

On 2/2/2019 at 1:05 AM, voilsb said:

Interesting opinions on the Storm. Now, I'm only one man, but I've put between 800 and 1,000 jumps on my Storm while wearing a wingsuit. I've had a total of two line twists, both of which were 360. One time I almost had line twists, it started to give me a 180 twist, but it cleared before the opening finished. Other than that, nothing.

I do frequently have less than a 90 degree off heading opening, and occasionally it'll open off heading more than that, but 99.8% of the time there are no line twists, and probably 90% of the time they are completely uneventful openings.

This is on a Storm 150 loaded at 1.6:1, with 3 different linesets: factory dacron, ThrillInc custom 300lb dacron, and HMA from Simon Wade. Wingsuits have been mostly Phantom 2/3, and Vampire 4, Freak, Magister.

I believe you. We have had that "experience" here with Storms, they seemingly work well but it will go south on you at some point and for no apparent reason. As I wrote we have a bucketfull off cutt videos from the Storms a few people where using, and as I said I myself decided to do away with mine as did my friends. It only took one single linetwist to go spin on me sometimes. Before the Storm at 1.6 I was the happy pilot of a Sabre2 at 1.6 and never had a problem. PS I am not sponsored and I do pay for my gear myself. I simply comment here only to provide our experiences to the good of all

In case anyone has been following along and curious, I emailed Squirrel regarding flying an Epicene over the maximum in-flight weight, but with a low wingloading of 1.3. This was their response:

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The max weight is there for reasons of caution, but plenty of pilots use it at higher loadings and it was load tested higher during dev. The more important issue is wingloading. The main point of the Epicene is to take the stress out of wingsuit openings. And for that, you want to be loaded more lightly – best is in the range we suggest, which is more like 1.2 to 1.3 ish… some go higher but it does not make things better.

1.3 may be an appropriate wing loading for you, but again it depends on your experience level and what your goals are.

So to answer the question, yes, an Epicene can be flown above the max weight, but Squirrel does not recommend going over a 1.3(ish)WL. But if you are ever unsure, I recommend reaching out to Squirrel for clarification.