Pilot 7

I'm thinking of getting a new canopy. Several people at F&D were using Pilot 7s.

Any input on these?

I love my Pilot7 for sure. I flew a Sabre for years as I never found a canopy for WS that I liked more. The Pilot7 gives me the opening I want with a wingsuit (big or small), on heading and positive but not hard at all. Good ability to get back from a long spot for sure. Super fun to fly and not at all what I expected when I first started jumping them for landing flare, very strong. I have a 137 but would be comfortable going down a size with its performance. That said, if you don't want to go smaller, you can basically go a size bigger in your existing rig if you get the LPV Bottom skin ZPX top skin option.

As a bonus and not wanting to be stuck with multiple rigs for different types of jumps, I also use it for non wingsuit jumps and the opening are very good from "normal" freefall.

Get a demo.. Why did not not jump one at FnD??? They were there ready to go... Silly Professor......

Scott

#flyaerodyne #pilot7

How does it handle line twists? Does it dive or does it stay "stable"?

Isn't that more correlated to wing loading? I've only had canopies dive on me if i load it 1.4 or higher. I'm not saying the profile of the canopy is excluded. For example a storm 120 for me takes off in a dive when i have line twist. A storm 135 will fly straight. Heck a reserve will dive if your in line twist and you load it around 1.4. I think the benefit of the f111 low pack volume wingsuit specific mains is to get your wing loading to something more manageable for wingsuiting.

I hadn't heard anything bad about the Pilot 7s but haven't flown one yet. They seem like a good option on the market.

For me its almost solely dependent upon symmetry in the risers. If they're matched up I can have a barber pole at 1.8WL and it's as stable as can be, but if you're leaned one side when the twists set in and then the risers are stuck with an offset then you're fucked.

I've got ~15 jumps on a single demo P7 168 Ultra LPV done the week they were unveiled, so take it for what you want, but I found the openings too hard on non-WS terminal jumps, regardless of how it was packed. Not cripplingly so, but it definitely made me look forward less to pitching. Otherwise, it's an excellent canopy to fly, and if you're dedicated to WS, it looks like a great match, with quick openings being a plus.

See attached - my pilot7 (loaded a little over 1:1.2) flew straight the whole time I was working on these (over a minute -- I pulled high).

Melissa126

See attached - my pilot7 (loaded a little over 1:1.2) flew straight the whole time I was working on these (over a minute -- I pulled high).

That is some major twists. Would you happen to have Flysight data on that jump?

I don't have a fly site :( but was jumping a small acro suit.

From our video it looks like maybe the bag got stuck in one corner coming out then got twisted around, I was stable/symmetrical during pull time.

Melissa126

I don't have a fly site :( but was jumping a small acro suit.

From our video it looks like maybe the bag got stuck in one corner coming out then got twisted around, I was stable/symmetrical during pull time.

Dynamic corners?

Melissa126

See attached - my pilot7 (loaded a little over 1:1.2) flew straight the whole time I was working on these (over a minute -- I pulled high).

From my experience the original Pilot is also more resistant to turning in linestwists than other canopies of the same class in the same size. I fly 150 sqft loaded quite heavily for WS (@1.68) and it goes straight like a train in linetwists.

Hence the question about Pilot 7

No, standard infinity without any wingsuit options on it

That's funny about hard openings, I jumped a pilot 7 and found it almost as soft as my crossfire in both in free fall loads of flare straight in landings 3-7 mph winds

Melissa126

I don't have a fly site :( but was jumping a small acro suit.

From our video it looks like maybe the bag got stuck in one corner coming out then got twisted around, I was stable/symmetrical during pull time.

The reason I asked about Flysight data is that I had an uneven line twist, that "flew straight". Looking at the GPS track over the ground, it had been in a slow turn. The slow turn put torque on the twists that made it hard to get out of (for me, at that time). I would expect some type of turn anytime the risers are uneven. The data would tell.

I hadn't thought of that! But definitely could have been the case (I didn't get out of those)

skydave89

For me its almost solely dependent upon symmetry in the risers. If they're matched up I can have a barber pole at 1.8WL and it's as stable as can be, but if you're leaned one side when the twists set in and then the risers are stuck with an offset then you're fucked.

I agree that it seems to be more a matter of riser symmetry and canopy planform than WL. I cutaway an otherwise standard semi-elliptical canopy loaded 1.05 to 1 because I opened with some bodytwists and it started to spiral down fast enough that my leg wing reinflated and I was spinning on my back. While a higher WL wouldn't have been great, I suspect the only thing that would have made it better (gear wise) would have been a different canopy more resistant to spiraling around.

I ended up trying a P7 and found the openings to be great. Really soft and on-heading. However, to my surprise the planform is still elliptical enough that I can turn fairly sharply. The turns are actually more aggressive than the same-size Sabre 2 I had flow in the past. I am not sure this is a good thing though. As a wingsuit canopy I kind of expect the flight would be quite boring and sluggish (like the PD Horizon) in order to reduce the seriousness of it spiraling down.

I suspect Aerodyne added some level of elliptical-ness to the planform to appease to those who wanted a canopy that will open well, but still retain some level of fun in flight. To my surprise, they dub the Pilot 7's 'planform factor' higher than the nine cell Pilot which kind of seems like they were going in the wrong direction with that one. I am curious if this canopy will spiral down and put you on your back if you open in twists.

Any of the Wingsuit dedicated canopies "can" behave badly in some circumstances however they will much less likely put you in that situation than e.g. SA-2 or Storm. Storm... yes, it can certainly spin you up at any wl and in our experience it is probably the worst out there

The Epicene and Horizon wingsuit canopies are more docile BASE-like canopies (7C, square and low aspect ratio), they are made from low-bulk enabling you to upsize two sizes more lowering wl. This is where you want to go if you are that concerned. So get your priorities right. If you prioritize canopy openings close to the level of what you see in BASE, then go for bigger sizes of the Epicene/Horizin and then accept the less sportier handling of those canopies especially at this higher wl.

Westerly

***For me its almost solely dependent upon symmetry in the risers. If they're matched up I can have a barber pole at 1.8WL and it's as stable as can be, but if you're leaned one side when the twists set in and then the risers are stuck with an offset then you're fucked.

I agree that it seems to be more a matter of riser symmetry and canopy planform than WL. I cutaway an otherwise standard semi-elliptical canopy loaded 1.05 to 1 because I opened with some bodytwists and it started to spiral down fast enough that my leg wing reinflated and I was spinning on my back. While a higher WL wouldn't have been great, I suspect the only thing that would have made it better (gear wise) would have been a different canopy more resistant to spiraling around.

I ended up trying a P7 and found the openings to be great. Really soft and on-heading. However, to my surprise the planform is still elliptical enough that I can turn fairly sharply. The turns are actually more aggressive than the same-size Sabre 2 I had flow in the past. I am not sure this is a good thing though. As a wingsuit canopy I kind of expect the flight would be quite boring and sluggish (like the PD Horizon) in order to reduce the seriousness of it spiraling down.

I suspect Aerodyne added some level of elliptical-ness to the planform to appease to those who wanted a canopy that will open well, but still retain some level of fun in flight. To my surprise, they dub the Pilot 7's 'planform factor' higher than the nine cell Pilot which kind of seems like they were going in the wrong direction with that one. I am curious if this canopy will spiral down and put you on your back if you open in twists.

Do you have video of this cutaway? What canopy and size were you flying at 1.05?

I find it really hard to believe that you got anything to spin and dive at 1.05.

FWIW here's a shitload of linetwists flying straight at ~1.4ish I guess? on a sf2 149.

I once saw a student on a Navigator 230 WL somewhere around 0.8 cut away a spinning canopy. I dont recall if it was so bad that he was on his back, but it was defiantly in a dive and spinning around. Any canopy can dive under some situations. I learned this the hard way during my FFC. I had bad twists on a Lotus 170 (WL about 1.1), and the canopy instantly spiraled down and put me on my back until I was able to clear it. Prior to this issue I had 275 jumps on the canopy without a single issue. Below is a video showing it (and yes my deployment was bad. I was still a student ).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22g4qCb8OU4

About 80 WS jumps later my deployment technique improved a bit after working with some coaches, but I had the same thing happen. The canopy opened fine, but then I spun a few times under it (bodytwists) and once again it started to spiral down with me spinning around on my back. But this time it was even more violent. It was spinning fast enough that my leg wing started to reinflate. I ended up cutting it away and after that I called it quits with that canopy. Again, this being on a 170 with a WL of about 1.1. I ended up getting a Pilot 7 to try which has been treating me well on openings so far.


Anyway, not to hijack, but I've wondered how the WinX and Pilot 7 compare to the Epicene and Horizon in terms of openings. At this point I'm mostly just concerned with openings. I am not really looking for anything sporty. However, both the Horizon and Epicene are LPV fabric and so the canopies wont fit in my rig which leaves me with standard ZP canopies only.

20_kN

However, both the Horizon and Epicene are LPV fabric and so the canopies wont fit in my rig which leaves me with standard ZP canopies only.

I assume you mean that in the same size those 2 canopies are too loose for your container?
Both manufacturers recommend a larger size due to the non-zp construction so if you did this you should have no issue.

DHemer

***However, both the Horizon and Epicene are LPV fabric and so the canopies wont fit in my rig which leaves me with standard ZP canopies only.

I assume you mean that in the same size those 2 canopies are too loose for your container?
Both manufacturers recommend a larger size due to the non-zp construction so if you did this you should have no issue.

I had the same problem and went with a winX in ZP. If you are newer to the sport and haven't downsized over the years then there isn't really room to upsize. I had a 190 zp safire before the winX. I understand the upsize if you are on a small canopy but if you already have a larger canopy than you cant really go that much bigger. I just wanted a new wingsuit canopy not a new rig after buying one 7 months prior.

How loose was it that it was a problem?

Over a few years I downsized from a 170 to a 140 in the same container. The 140 was not overly loose and shortening the closing loop was sufficient. Packing a 140 into the larger d-bag was a pleasure.

kat00

******However, both the Horizon and Epicene are LPV fabric and so the canopies wont fit in my rig which leaves me with standard ZP canopies only.

I assume you mean that in the same size those 2 canopies are too loose for your container?
Both manufacturers recommend a larger size due to the non-zp construction so if you did this you should have no issue.

I had the same problem and went with a winX in ZP. If you are newer to the sport and haven't downsized over the years then there isn't really room to upsize. I had a 190 zp safire before the winX. I understand the upsize if you are on a small canopy but if you already have a larger canopy than you cant really go that much bigger. I just wanted a new wingsuit canopy not a new rig after buying one 7 months prior.

Yep, bingo. These LPV canopies are made with the assumption that everyone downsizes to like a 120 or whatever and now they need to upsize with a wingsuit, but not everyone does that. Some people are fine flying larger canopies and never downsize beyond a 170 or 150. In that case a ultra LPV canopy doesent work as there is no room (or need) to upsize.

The other issue, which I consider to be quite legitimate, is that if you are using an ultra LPV canopy in a small container, you're going to have a disproportionately small reserve. Like a 170 Epicene with a 126 PDR or whatever. Personally, I think that is risky. I much rather prefer to have my reserve the same size as my main on a wingsuit jump.

I think the majority of people buying wingsuit specific canopies are at the point in the sport they have smaller containers so it makes sense for the manufacturers .

I have a 135 container with a low pack volume reserve and a zpx 137 Pilot 7. It is a loose fit in my container. The full LPV option would be even smaller so I was happy with the more durable zp option. My friend packs a 150 lpv into a micro sized for a 120.

A smaller rig with larger low pack volume main and reserve is the best of both worlds for me.