Skydiving Through Clouds (Total Cover)

Hi,

Apart from Australia and NZ which countries have official regulations for cloud jumping?

I'm interested in links to official docs as I am working on a project to allow such jumping.

Thanks

The USA has the FAA regulations ,(aka FAR’s). Very easy search.

37 minutes ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

If things were so easy, maybe you could have explained them...

Explaining the FAR’s isn’t easy but finding them is. Then researching for the specifics is up to the “searcher”, I don’t have any idea what he wants to do. Here’s an example.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2016/Sep/120446/Skydiving and Parachute Operations.pdf

 

1 minute ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

So 'dicussion' forums, in your estimation, are where people tell others how poor they are at research, and not discuss the subject at all?

He did not ask for a discussion and I did not judge his search ability. If you want a discussion, I suggest you start a new thread or do the research required so you can answer any of the questions he did not ask. Stop thinking for other people and trolling. 

1 hour ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

You mean, if there is a cloud on the horizon, feds can come and rough you up?

Vertical descents are by orders of magnitude more controllable than horizontal flight, but any power gained by feds, is never submitted.

If things were so easy, maybe you could have explained them...?

What ever happened to skydivers and this website?

you want to ensure one dude pulls his head in, or that a bunch of readers learn something?

I'm interested in why such obviously overzealous rules are not addressed, couldn't be too hard, maybe just an attitude adjustment?

 

Not completely sure what all that means, but I can say this. Skydiving in the U.S. operates under the FAA's "visual flight rules", also known as VFR. Under these rules, pilots are required to maintain clearance from clouds so they can see and avoid other aircraft. Much of the airspace in the U.S. is uncontrolled, meaning there is no air traffic control dictating aircraft movement. These areas require everyone to watch for and avoid everyone else on their own.

Put simply, skydivers can't freefall or descend with a parachute through or near clouds because we would be unable to see and avoid aircraft.

Specific clearance requirements are covered under Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) section 105.17.

https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-14/chapter-I/subchapter-F/part-105/subpart-B/section-105.17

1 hour ago, chuckakers said:

Not completely sure what all that means,

No worries, like the rest of us take a number and stand in line. Mистер, centennial chimp rarely has a discernible point until his third or fourth vitriolic reply.

57 minutes ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

Emotional wrecks have a great deal to answer for.

I have not blocked you yet only because of the amusement I sometimes get from the surreal way you butcher the language.

1 hour ago, The Hundredth Monkey said:

If the clouds are above opening height, what is the big deal?

So the USPA and the FAA need to come to terms with their egos and fear and start thinking rationally, if the rules are the same as they were a decade ago when I was there facepalming the hysteria over a couple of clouds on the horizon...
 

Not replying to the Monkey as much as posting for the benefit of those who are here to learn...

As I stated in a previous post, skydivers in clouds - whether in freefall or under canopy - can't see or avoid aircraft (or other jumpers for that matter). If the clouds are below the exit altitude but above the deployment altitude, jumpers are forced to freefall through them.

As for the assumption that any of this has to do with egos, no one needs to come to terms with anything. The FAA has rules in place for a reason. We follow them for a reason. Pretty simple concept.

It's usually a good idea to pick your battles wisely.

I thought the UK allowed jumping through clouds.  Is this correct?  Does it require being located where VFR isn't allowed or something like that?

I ws under the impression that the American ban on parachuting through clouds was written circa 1964 when a bunch of skydivers drowned in Lake Erie. The story starts with a bunch of skydivers doing high altitude (above 20,000 feet) from a World War 2 surplus B-25 Mitchell bomber. When clouds closed in below them, they asked an air traffic controller to help them spot. Unfortunately, ATC followed the wrong airplane - Beechcraft Bonanza. When the Bonanza was over the chosen drop zone, ATC cleared them to jump. Unfortunately, the B-25 was really over Lake Erie. All the jumpers landed in the Lake and most drowned.

Since then, navigation avionics have improved considerably, but no civil servant (e.g. ATC) wants to involved with a decision that might kill some one, so jumping through clouds is still banned in American airspace.

OTOH I have done dozens of jumps through clouds, dating back to 1980. Most of those jumps were made in other countries. We had good pilots - who knew how to read VOR or GPS systems, so that my longest walk was from the far end of the runway. Ho hum!!!!!!

11 hours ago, riggerrob said:

I ws under the impression that the American ban on parachuting through clouds was written circa 1964 when a bunch of skydivers drowned in Lake Erie. The story starts with a bunch of skydivers doing high altitude (above 20,000 feet) from a World War 2 surplus B-25 Mitchell bomber. When clouds closed in below them, they asked an air traffic controller to help them spot. Unfortunately, ATC followed the wrong airplane - Beechcraft Bonanza. When the Bonanza was over the chosen drop zone, ATC cleared them to jump. Unfortunately, the B-25 was really over Lake Erie. All the jumpers landed in the Lake and most drowned.

Since then, navigation avionics have improved considerably, but no civil servant (e.g. ATC) wants to involved with a decision that might kill some one, so jumping through clouds is still banned in American airspace.

OTOH I have done dozens of jumps through clouds, dating back to 1980. Most of those jumps were made in other countries. We had good pilots - who knew how to read VOR or GPS systems, so that my longest walk was from the far end of the runway. Ho hum!!!!!!

Hi Rob,

I made my first jump in 1964 & the rule was in place then.

The Lake Erie tragedy was in 1967:  Lake Erie B25 -- long - Skydiving History & Trivia - Dropzone.com

All but two drowned.

Jerry Baumchen

I honestly have no idea why we’re discussing the US here. The OP’s question was for a list of countries that allow jumping through cloud as we doin Aus / NZ. The US does not allow this sort of jumping so is irrelevant to the conversation.

It's quite interesting how quickly this thread derailed from someone asking for cloud regulations in different nations towards a general FAA bash-fest...

Anyway, to add something relevant to the original question: The regulation in the Netherlands is based on the "Regeling Valschermspringen 2010" https://wetten.overheid.nl/BWBR0027968/2022-01-01 (note, in Dutch so you might have to use online translators).

Specifically article 3.1.d, which boils down to VFR only. No formal jumping through clouds allowed.

https://britishskydiving.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Section-8.pdf

3. CLOUD AND VISIBILITY

3.1. Cloud

Skydivers may not leave the aircraft if, at the point of exit, the ground between the opening point and the intended landing area is not visible. 3.2. Visibility. The minimum flight visibility must be at least 5km.

1 hour ago, davenuk said:

https://britishskydiving.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/11/Section-8.pdf

3. CLOUD AND VISIBILITY

3.1. Cloud

Skydivers may not leave the aircraft if, at the point of exit, the ground between the opening point and the intended landing area is not visible. 3.2. Visibility. The minimum flight visibility must be at least 5km.

 

 

Still happens all the time in the UK, at least back when I used to jump there.

Effectively this rule in the Ops manual has the effect that if the cloud base is above 3000ft skydiving tends to happen as 3000ft is the minimum deployment height for non demo jumping.

Falling through cloud isnt that much fun though, rain drops are very pointy when you fall through them 

16 minutes ago, MickPatch said:

Falling through cloud isnt that much fun though, rain drops are very pointy when you fall through them 

raindrops?! I was on a 7 way ws load last year and we all landed covered in snow and ice 

On 1/2/2023 at 4:08 AM, The Hundredth Monkey said:

So what is the issue with falling through cloud in freefall, do you think?
 

He already directly answered this twice including in the post you quoted. JFC- someone likes the sound of their own voice

I try to miss clouds when they’re wet, at least the really big gray ones. But I have to admit I love the walls on those tall, fat “Cumies”. “feel the need for speed”. This thread did go off course, probably avoiding some clouds. 

On 12/27/2022 at 9:26 PM, chuckakers said:

Not replying to the Monkey as much as posting for the benefit of those who are here to learn...

As I stated in a previous post, skydivers in clouds - whether in freefall or under canopy - can't see or avoid aircraft (or other jumpers for that matter). If the clouds are below the exit altitude but above the deployment altitude, jumpers are forced to freefall through them.

As for the assumption that any of this has to do with egos, no one needs to come to terms with anything. The FAA has rules in place for a reason. We follow them for a reason. Pretty simple concept.

It's usually a good idea to pick your battles wisely.

There's another angle to this too. The VFR cloud clearance exists to separate VFR and IFR traffic, not just to ensure visibility. There might be planes in those clouds talking to a different air traffic controller who may not know that the plane flying 10000 feet above them is dropping skydivers.