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Attention Skydivers: Jumping a BASE rig from aircraft in the US is not just illegal, but stupid
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Quoteafter all are a "self policing" sport
Since when does "self policing" involve the help of someone from the FAA?
Judging by your comments about BASE jumpers in general, you've got some issues. I'm glad I've never run across anyone quite like you in person at a dropzone yet...
QuoteAfter all, the baloon pilot would be the one to receive the worst punishment since the only thing the FAA can do to a jumper without any FAA certificates is to issue a civil fine.
And I heard (hearsay) about a similar case (jump through clouds) when a jumper was fined. The fine was something about 1000 USD.
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QuoteQuoteAfter all, the baloon pilot would be the one to receive the worst punishment since the only thing the FAA can do to a jumper without any FAA certificates is to issue a civil fine.
And I heard (hearsay) about a similar case (jump through clouds) when a jumper was fined. The fine was something about 1000 USD.
and who enforced the fine? a judge? and on what grounds?
NickDG 23
>>It has been painfully obviously for many, many years
now that the BASE crowd seem to think there above the law, you tresspass, B&E, property damage ECT.
Show a total disrespect for other peoples rights and property,risk our sport and others way of making a living by jumping out of AC,
when one of your own bounces you call 911 and run off like a bunch of cowards, because your tresspassing ect.
Then you whine a cry because you can't jump El'cap and the like, guess what, you stupid fuckers are the reason us law abiding citizens can go to El' cap and jump it and the main reason it is outlawed is because of the total lack of respect your peers have shown over the years in that park. <<
Of all the BASE jumpers I've known over the years none of them have been cowards.
Oh, and the rest of what you said is baloney too . . .
NickD
BASE 194
now that the BASE crowd seem to think there above the law, you tresspass, B&E, property damage ECT.
Show a total disrespect for other peoples rights and property,risk our sport and others way of making a living by jumping out of AC,
when one of your own bounces you call 911 and run off like a bunch of cowards, because your tresspassing ect.
Then you whine a cry because you can't jump El'cap and the like, guess what, you stupid fuckers are the reason us law abiding citizens can go to El' cap and jump it and the main reason it is outlawed is because of the total lack of respect your peers have shown over the years in that park. <<
Of all the BASE jumpers I've known over the years none of them have been cowards.
Oh, and the rest of what you said is baloney too . . .
NickD
BASE 194
Foggy 0
Question?
Is she part of the same FAA crew that approved the jet for the convention? If so then some good negotiations must have been going with the local "Feds" to make this happen. I do not know Gary but am well aware of his rep and I consider his actions more than appropriate under these particular circumstances.
Your choice: Jump the jet or base the balloon.
Just a thought
Foggy
D21109
(p.s. 45 balloon jumps at 800' on a static line courtesy of HMG. Seriously overrated experience
)
Is she part of the same FAA crew that approved the jet for the convention? If so then some good negotiations must have been going with the local "Feds" to make this happen. I do not know Gary but am well aware of his rep and I consider his actions more than appropriate under these particular circumstances.
Your choice: Jump the jet or base the balloon.
Just a thought
Foggy
D21109
(p.s. 45 balloon jumps at 800' on a static line courtesy of HMG. Seriously overrated experience
)
billvon 2,822
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>I have many balloon jumps done with BASE gear. It is NOT illegal and it is NOT stupid.
This is getting silly.
This is not about whether it's safe or not.
This is not about whether BASE jumping is cool.
This is not about what wimps skydivers are.
This is not about what losers BASE jumpers are.
This is not about whether the two sports are compatible.
This is not about the legality of BASE jumping in national parks.
What this IS about is that it is illegal to jump from an aircraft in the US without TSOed gear - and free flying ballons are aircraft. If you get caught, the pilot gets screwed. So it's not OK to do it. Such issues should (IMO) be handled without getting the FAA involved.
This is getting silly.
This is not about whether it's safe or not.
This is not about whether BASE jumping is cool.
This is not about what wimps skydivers are.
This is not about what losers BASE jumpers are.
This is not about whether the two sports are compatible.
This is not about the legality of BASE jumping in national parks.
What this IS about is that it is illegal to jump from an aircraft in the US without TSOed gear - and free flying ballons are aircraft. If you get caught, the pilot gets screwed. So it's not OK to do it. Such issues should (IMO) be handled without getting the FAA involved.
QuoteAlthough I think a single parachute system is safer, and actually feel safer than having a dual parachute system on my back I would never attempt to jump a single parachute system at a skydiving event........
Is there any possible way you can justify feeling this way?
My idea of a fair fight is clubbing baby seals
billvon 2,822
>Is there any possible way you can justify feeling this way?
I can think of a few reasons.
One is what's familiar to you. You might feel safer with a parachute on than with a harness and a tether if you were a C-130 loadmaster dropping jumpers - even though the military uses harnesses and tethers with great success. (And even though they're probably safer.)
Another is relative sizing. Most BASE rigs are large; a great many skydiving rigs are small. If I was going to have a tension knot, I'd rather have it on my Mojo 240 than on my PD143R.
Yet another is deployment reliability and packing skill. A BASE rig is very, very reliable, and cannot have a two-out malfunction. If someone is more familiar with packing a BASE rig than packing a skydiving main, their odds of having a double mal, an out of sequence deployment or a two-out that causes them problems may well be greater than the odds of a mal on a single parachute system.
Keep in mind that whuffos think that having three parachutes would be safer - and we laugh at them, because we're comfortable with two.
I can think of a few reasons.
One is what's familiar to you. You might feel safer with a parachute on than with a harness and a tether if you were a C-130 loadmaster dropping jumpers - even though the military uses harnesses and tethers with great success. (And even though they're probably safer.)
Another is relative sizing. Most BASE rigs are large; a great many skydiving rigs are small. If I was going to have a tension knot, I'd rather have it on my Mojo 240 than on my PD143R.
Yet another is deployment reliability and packing skill. A BASE rig is very, very reliable, and cannot have a two-out malfunction. If someone is more familiar with packing a BASE rig than packing a skydiving main, their odds of having a double mal, an out of sequence deployment or a two-out that causes them problems may well be greater than the odds of a mal on a single parachute system.
Keep in mind that whuffos think that having three parachutes would be safer - and we laugh at them, because we're comfortable with two.
base428 1
QuoteWhat this IS about is that it is illegal to jump from an aircraft in the US without TSOed gear
Not necessarily correct. I wish Avery would chime in here and tell us about the above-mentioned 1997 WFFC low-altitude balloon jumps. I believe you can jump non-TSOed gear from an aircraft with an FAA waiver.
As much as everyone wants to separate BASE Jumpers and Skydivers, we must keep in mind that we are all parachutists....
(c)2010 Vertical Visions. No unauthorized duplication permitted. <==For the media only
HydroGuy 0
QuoteAs for running to the FED's instead of manifest it would depend on what your reporting.
If your going to run to them everytime a jumper bust a cloud, then your a dumbass.
However if you see perris valley staff doing the same fuel swapping act like in 92 I would hope you would go talk to the FED's, if you don't your really a dumbass!
QuoteBustin an FAR is bustin an FAR, don't matter if your cloud jumping or jumping non TSO'd gear or using shit fuel, your still bustin an FAR.
In your first post, you talk as if some FAR's aren't worthy of being payed attention to...going so far as to say I'd be a "dumbass" for reporting a violation of them. But in your second post, you act like there is no difference.
Very contradictory...to say the least. Sometimes I think you just like to argue for the sake of it....................
Get in - Get off - Get away....repeat as neccessary
I asked the Nashville FSDO office about that, for thier understanding on the FAR's and TSO's.
Thier take; It is illegal and NOT waiverable, to jump non-TSO'd gear and/or not have a dual parachute harness conatiner, from an aircraft.
A balloon is an Aircraft as far as the FAA feels.
The FSDO went on to say if the rig was TSO'd and had a reserve, have fun, BUT watch the special provisions and deployment altitudes (he figured this was a specific event and would have a 7711-2 and -1 on file), this may or may not apply, it would be a WFFC staff question to answer.
Safety wasn't a real issue. Legality is/was.
Plus, I think it was defined as a legal issue when the FAA rep addressed the jumper in question and any argument against that is pointless, the enforcment authority made thier presence known (yes, at a skydivers request)
I support Gary for using the FAA rep, once he knew the jumper would face no real legal issue, but to help drive home the point of legal or not.
We may not like it but we who ARE members of USPA agreed to it in theory and the FAA has pretty much let us handle it. In my opinion it is better Gary handled it than the Local DA.
Thier take; It is illegal and NOT waiverable, to jump non-TSO'd gear and/or not have a dual parachute harness conatiner, from an aircraft.
A balloon is an Aircraft as far as the FAA feels.
The FSDO went on to say if the rig was TSO'd and had a reserve, have fun, BUT watch the special provisions and deployment altitudes (he figured this was a specific event and would have a 7711-2 and -1 on file), this may or may not apply, it would be a WFFC staff question to answer.
Safety wasn't a real issue. Legality is/was.
Plus, I think it was defined as a legal issue when the FAA rep addressed the jumper in question and any argument against that is pointless, the enforcment authority made thier presence known (yes, at a skydivers request)
I support Gary for using the FAA rep, once he knew the jumper would face no real legal issue, but to help drive home the point of legal or not.
We may not like it but we who ARE members of USPA agreed to it in theory and the FAA has pretty much let us handle it. In my opinion it is better Gary handled it than the Local DA.
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
QuoteGary,
Some will tell you to get your nose out of thier business, I will tell Good Job.
We as a group (at least in the US) have pledged to be self policing.
Going and telling on someone to the FAA is not SELF-POLICING...that is being a RAT! Talk to the guy....fine, inform balloon pilot....fine, take it to the Meet-head.....fine, RAT out to the FAA....DUMB, pathetic really.
SabreDave
Read it again, Gary did it after the legal issue went away and used it as a chance to drive home a point.
Pathetic? No, Smart, he made his point the lesson (I hope) was learned with no long term legal issues.
Weather we agree with what he did or not, we are all learning some thing from this, what that is, is up to each of us.
Pathetic? No, Smart, he made his point the lesson (I hope) was learned with no long term legal issues.
Weather we agree with what he did or not, we are all learning some thing from this, what that is, is up to each of us.
An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!
So, start being safe, first!!!
Regardless of whether the legal issue was already "put aside" talking to the FAA is about it is dumb. Try some people skills. It could have been handled internally........SELF-Policed as you said.
It doesn't sound to me like said jumper told Tweek to piss off?!?!? It doesn't sound like he said F-U I'll do what I want!??! So why take it to some FAA drone?!!? Are some so lacking in people/social skills that they can't talk it out like adults, gotta run and tell someone?? Lame...........I guesss we will have to agree to disagree.
Lucky for me we can choose to jump non-TSO'd gear up here or jump BASE rigs from planes......ahhhh the land of the free
It doesn't sound to me like said jumper told Tweek to piss off?!?!? It doesn't sound like he said F-U I'll do what I want!??! So why take it to some FAA drone?!!? Are some so lacking in people/social skills that they can't talk it out like adults, gotta run and tell someone?? Lame...........I guesss we will have to agree to disagree.
Lucky for me we can choose to jump non-TSO'd gear up here or jump BASE rigs from planes......ahhhh the land of the free
SabreDave
peek 21
QuoteI'm not sure what you're mad about? BASE jumping out of a balloon OR BASE jumping out of THIS balloon at THAT venue.
As I wrote in a previous post: "I don't want skydiving, the WFFC, or balloons at the WFFC placed in jepardy."
QuoteJust cuz you don't like BASE jumping and think it's stupid..
I don't think it's stupid and I can't imagine where you got that idea. I'd probably make a number of BASE jumps if there were legal places to do it near me, but I'm not into it enough to go to the effort.
Intriguing run of comments. Sad, though, that most of the pro-BASE jump replies completely miss the boat. My thoughts...
1) Gary is 100% correct. It is illegal. Period. Move on.
2) One should not try to rationalize, excuse, or condone the attempted jump at WFFC, regardless of safety, quality of gear, experience of the jumper, or personal thoughts on skydiving, base jumping, etc. Again, see number one.
3) Had the unthinkable happened, or even a botched landing, and the jumper injured, the entire skydiving community would suffer, including the possiblity of closing the WFFC. The pilot could have lost his license. What would happen to the base community ? Not a thing. When one has nothing to lose, ones self-protective "Base is safer than pond swooping" argument rings hollow.
4) In the absence of people like Gary, our sport would be controlled by others, a true disaster.
5) Finally, his comments to Dixie, a familiar, fair, and skydiver oriented official from the FAA was not (in any way) turning in a jumper. It was simply asking someone with a title to repremand someone for attempting to peform an illegal, and yes, very stupid, stunt.
I enjoy skydiving. I enjoy Base jumping. I am active in both. I do however, realize that my behavior, activities, and jumps - even base jumps, can have repercussions that extend beyond my desire for a thrill.
just my two cents.
1) Gary is 100% correct. It is illegal. Period. Move on.
2) One should not try to rationalize, excuse, or condone the attempted jump at WFFC, regardless of safety, quality of gear, experience of the jumper, or personal thoughts on skydiving, base jumping, etc. Again, see number one.
3) Had the unthinkable happened, or even a botched landing, and the jumper injured, the entire skydiving community would suffer, including the possiblity of closing the WFFC. The pilot could have lost his license. What would happen to the base community ? Not a thing. When one has nothing to lose, ones self-protective "Base is safer than pond swooping" argument rings hollow.
4) In the absence of people like Gary, our sport would be controlled by others, a true disaster.
5) Finally, his comments to Dixie, a familiar, fair, and skydiver oriented official from the FAA was not (in any way) turning in a jumper. It was simply asking someone with a title to repremand someone for attempting to peform an illegal, and yes, very stupid, stunt.
I enjoy skydiving. I enjoy Base jumping. I am active in both. I do however, realize that my behavior, activities, and jumps - even base jumps, can have repercussions that extend beyond my desire for a thrill.
just my two cents.
Bustin an FAR is bustin an FAR, don't matter if your cloud jumping or jumping non TSO'd gear or using shit fuel, your still bustin an FAR.
I never said you did try defend him.
However I will defend Mr. Peek's actions in this case,
a skydiver looking out for skydiving we are after all are a "self policing" sport, my guess is the Fed's would see it that way, self policing, Mr. Peek tried to express the rules to the BASE guy, who on his own accord has already shown he didn't give a shit about FAR's by trying to "get packed to make the load" and by bringing a BASE rig to a skydiving event and trying to jump it in the early morning when he though no one would see him.
So who better to set him stright then the FAA, that is their job to explain the rule book to those who don't get it or seem to understand them.
Good.
Having been on an AC with an asshat who wore a BASE rig with 3-rings and a cutaway handle on to a jumpship then sat with his back to the wall so no one could see he had no sport rig on till he jumped out at 600 agl, I really don't think a hot air pilot would really know what he is looking at if the rig looked like the rig asshat had on.
I enjoy skydiving and don't condone some lowlife self centered BASE fuckhead doing act's that can hurt my sport and a pilot who is there to provide skydivers with a chance to jump his balloon.
~
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