EPs for shoulder dislocations during a skydive

@David Wang you should revise your emergency procedures. You LOOK at silver handle BEFORE pulling red handle.

1 hour ago, CoolBeans said:

@David Wang you should revise your emergency procedures. You LOOK at silver handle BEFORE pulling red handle.

With all due respect @CoolBeans, I would really suggest you try to be more humble. I understand you have the best intentions giving such advices, but you are not in any way competent to do so. And please don't take this personally, I understand you mean well.

I was taught the exact same procedure that David described (look, grab, pull, look grab, pull). We can discuss the differences and exchange opinions but it ultimately comes down to the fact that EPs are taught with different variations and the BEST procedure is the one you practiced (be it pull-look, look-pull or the single-handed version).

@David Wang, for EPs and related topics, talk to your instructors. Please don't take advice from the internet for granted, noone here knows you personally. Talk to your instructors, share your thoughts and concerns, go through procedures with them and then practice them the way they show you.

5 hours ago, Binary93 said:

I was taught the exact same procedure that David described (look, grab, pull, look grab, pull).

Hey mate, your instructors are not following SIM, you may want to ask them to revise what they are teaching. This is Category A stuff.

David seems to have missed the difference completely which is why I replied.

That's fine if you want to do your own thing, but at least be aware what are the recommended procedures.

David and Binary have it wrong.

nwt and CoolBeans have it right.

AFF EPs are:

10 hours ago, nwt said:

taught in AFF:

1. look red
2. grab red (both hands)
3. look silver
4. peel, pull red
5. grab silver (both hands)
6. pull silver

The essential difference being to look at silver before peel-pull red. The reason is that when you cut away you go back into freefall, which (especially for a student) can be discombobulating, which is not the time you want to be searching for your life-saving next handle.

There have been people found next to their craters with their thumb in the large (3)ring.

(No, you don't rely on your RSL.)

44 minutes ago, CoolBeans said:

Hey mate, your instructors are not following SIM, you may want to ask them to revise what they are teaching. This is Category A stuff.

Sure, I'll let them know you disagree with their method.

6 minutes ago, dudeman17 said:

There have been people found next to their craters with their thumb in the large (3)ring.

There have also been people doing look, grab, look, grab, peel, pull and ending up with two out (skipping the cutaway). And many are practicing look, grab, look, peel, pull, peel, pull but end up doing something different (like look, grab, pull, look, grab, pull) in the EP because it's unnatural and you tend to look and do stuff in sync which is a reflex that can kick in in stressful situations. You can practice a lot, but you still look for the fork, pick up the fork, look for the knife, pick up the knife when you eat lunch every day. No method is perfect, and the best one is the one he is taught by the instructors and which he practices.

I totally agree with Binary93. 

I will stick with what I have trained. 

You both still have it wrong. AFF EP's are definitely both hands on each handle - both hands pulling the cutaway handle, then both hands pulling the reserve handle. It's extremely methodical to absolutely ensure that the cutaway happens first, then the reserve pull. The part you're getting wrong is that after both hands are on the cutaway handle, but before it is pulled, you look at the reserve handle so that you know where you're going next. That is standard USPA AFF. (I've been teaching it since 1990.)

3 hours ago, David Wang said:

I will stick with what I have trained. 

David, you need to correct this in your mind. Talk to your instructor again, they will confirm this. If the instructor you talk to does not agree, then you need to talk to the school manager or Dan BC so that they can be corrected.

Here, from Perris, start at about 4:45 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbA_LwmAUd4

Sure, Wendy, but you know how conversations evolve. An error this basic needs to be addressed, and it started with David's own error in posts 21 and 23. I am an AFF-I who has taught at Perris, and the last thing I said was for him to confirm this with his instructors there.

Just lookin' out for the kids, you do that a lot yourself...

8 hours ago, Binary93 said:

And many are practicing look, grab, look, peel, pull, peel, pull but end up doing something different (like look, grab, pull, look, grab, pull) in the EP because it's unnatural and you tend to look and do stuff in sync which is a reflex that can kick in in stressful situations. You can practice a lot, but you still look for the fork, pick up the fork, look for the knife, pick up the knife when you eat lunch every day.

This is more of a higher level comment not specific to cutaways, but if you're worried about making an error in a procedure that might contribute to a poor outcome, the solution is more training--not to just incorporate the error into the procedure and pretend that's the way you meant it...

6 hours ago, dudeman17 said:

You both still have it wrong. AFF EP's are definitely both hands on each handle - both hands pulling the cutaway handle, then both hands pulling the reserve handle. It's extremely methodical to absolutely ensure that the cutaway happens first, then the reserve pull. The part you're getting wrong is that after both hands are on the cutaway handle, but before it is pulled, you look at the reserve handle so that you know where you're going next. That is standard USPA AFF. (I've been teaching it since 1990.)

David, you need to correct this in your mind. Talk to your instructor again, they will confirm this. If the instructor you talk to does not agree, then you need to talk to the school manager or Dan BC so that they can be corrected.

Here, from Perris, start at about 4:45 -

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbA_LwmAUd4

 

Thank you...but this is weird. 

Below is my AFF study guide. 

I will definitely talk to my instructors. However, I believe there is no universal way and every DZ teaches different EPs. Perris is one of the best and I don’t believe they don’t follow USPA guidelines. Pretty sure they won’t change the way they teach and I will stick with what I have learned. That video is in 2015 its old and they have changed the method. I agree with what Binary said, the best method is the method that I have learned and practiced. 

1 hour ago, nwt said:

This is more of a higher level comment not specific to cutaways, but if you're worried about making an error in a procedure that might contribute to a poor outcome, the solution is more training--not to just incorporate the error into the procedure and pretend that's the way you meant it...

<sarcasm>Why would you have EPs then? If you make an error requiring EP it just means you need more training, is that what you meant?</sarcasm>

Please don't think that you have thought about all the different things and that others are just dumb idiots doing stuff randomly. The procedures are there to reduce user error, which for folks just beginning their journey into the sport is very important because they do not have enough training. I doubt your FJC lasted for months practicing EPs. Everything in skydiving (procedures and gear) follows defensive design because errors can and will happen.

Sorry for hogging the thread and for a semi-rant, I'll stop responding to these. If anyone wishes to talk about this further, they can start a new thread with a more appropriate name.

15 minutes ago, Binary93 said:

<sarcasm>Why would you have EPs then? If you make an error requiring EP it just means you need more training, is that what you meant?</sarcasm>

Please don't think that you have thought about all the different things and that others are just dumb idiots doing stuff randomly. The procedures are there to reduce user error, which for folks just beginning their journey into the sport is very important because they do not have enough training. I doubt your FJC lasted for months practicing EPs. Everything in skydiving (procedures and gear) follows defensive design because errors can and will happen.

Sorry for hogging the thread and for a semi-rant, I'll stop responding to these. If anyone wishes to talk about this further, they can start a new thread with a more appropriate name.

I've started a thread: 

https://uspa.org/skydiveschool/A#academics

Note: On single-operation systems, pulling the reserve ripcord releases the main canopy first before deploying the reserve. Partial malfunction procedures for a single-operation system (SOS) are the same as for a total malfunction.

1. Check altitude.
2. Return to the arch position.
3. Ripcord systems only: Discard the main ripcord.
4. Locate and grasp the cutaway handle.
5. Locate the reserve ripcord handle.
6. Pull the cutaway handle until no lower than 1,000 feet.
7. Pull the reserve ripcord handle immediately after cutting away or by at least 1,000 feet, regardless of stability, to initiate reserve deployment.
8. Arch and check over the right shoulder for reserve pilot chute deployment.
9. Cut away above 1,000 feet.
   1. If a malfunction procedure has not resolved the problem by then, deploy the reserve (requires a cutaway with an SOS system).
   2. In the event of any malfunction and regardless of the planned procedure or equipment, the reserve ripcord must be pulled by no lower than 1,000 feet.