Support for the Skydiving Museum with USPA membership funds

I'm not arguing with you in that many skydivers may not care. I'm arguing that they SHOULD.

Policy analysis? Rather than than attempt to analyze or describe why skydivers don't much care, why not prescribe how we might engage greater participation from our members? Accepting our community's status quo on this subject is setting us up for a great deal of drama later.

And you don't mind that the USPA is taking a few of your dollars every year to spend on the building of a museum that has yet to break ground? That's not ethical. It might be a few dollars, but it's still my money.

Rather than just accept things why they are - which is cynical - why not invest some energy in moving the community into a better direction?

-JD-

USPA has to be financially secure for the next big Lawsuit. We always have one coming, either from a student that sprains an ankle, or worse the next Skydiving airplane crash. Bill Ottley was always concerned about a huge Lawsuit with slick lawyers for the plaintiff that could wipe out USPA. It's already happened to Drop zones. The USPA Membership elects the USPA BOD and has nothing to do with the Skydiving Museum. Just the facts please.

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Rather than just accept things why they are - which is cynical - why not invest some energy in moving the community into a better direction?

Probably because it's of little importance in anyone's life and they have other, better ways to waste time. Like hanging out on internet forums. The skydiving community is actually doing fairly well.

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And you don't mind that the USPA is taking a few of your dollars every year to spend on the building of a museum that has yet to break ground? That's not ethical. It might be a few dollars, but it's still my money.

It seems that many posts here make the implicit assumption that members are either AGAINST the USPA giving funds to the museum or simply do not care. I think that is not an accurate assumption.
It is quite possible that people are genuinely FOR this.

I don't really like the logic that is being applied here: "Since I strongly dislike this use of funds, it must be that everyone else also dislikes it, or at best they don't care enough...therefore THEY (the BOD) are clearly not listening to their members" While this poll is leaning towards the "DISLIKE" option, it is not doing so as strongly as reading most posts here would indicate. I find it quite possible that anywhere from a large minority to a small majority actually does support the use of funds for a skydiving museum. (Actually, I can't even be sure that it isn't a large majority.)
I do support it. I may be persuaded otherwise at some point, but as of this point I see nothing wrong with it and think it would be an exciting project.

Yer missing the point. You are rite in the fact that most members support an ISMHOF. What doesn't have support, is how it has been handled to get it done. Millions (6 at last count) have been pledged for this and in 40 yrs absolutely nothing has been done. Not even a firm site has been decided. This is and has been a total failure on so many levels, it's almost comical. Does that mean give up on it? Not in my opinion. What this needs (again IMO), is some accountability and a REAL Plan to actually get it done. And it starts with the BOD having full disclosure of how another dime towards it is gonna do it. Bring that to the table and you will see a LOT more support from the GM. Until that happens, this is nothing but a farce, hiding behind a false hope that will never get finished even in another 40 yrs.

skyfox2007

I'm not arguing with you in that many skydivers may not care. I'm arguing that they SHOULD.

Policy analysis? Rather than than attempt to analyze or describe why skydivers don't much care, why not prescribe how we might engage greater participation from our members? Accepting our community's status quo on this subject is setting us up for a great deal of drama later.

And you don't mind that the USPA is taking a few of your dollars every year to spend on the building of a museum that has yet to break ground? That's not ethical. It might be a few dollars, but it's still my money.

Rather than just accept things why they are - which is cynical - why not invest some energy in moving the community into a better direction?

-JD-

Not sure why the question after policy analysis.

It's completely ethical, I work primarily as a project manager on federal contracts. A lot money goes into just estimating and bidding a job. After that even more money goes into administrative tasks far before any ground braking takes place or even authorization to begin construction.

Accepting things the way they are is only cynical if you are unhappy with them.

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I find it quite possible that anywhere from a large minority to a small majority actually does support the use of funds for a skydiving museum. (Actually, I can't even be sure that it isn't a large majority.)
I do support it.

I’m not against uspa supporting a museum. I’m against uspa giving money away for a project that has no indications that it will actually happen at some point. This a very important distinction.

Derek V

Hooknswoop

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I find it quite possible that anywhere from a large minority to a small majority actually does support the use of funds for a skydiving museum. (Actually, I can't even be sure that it isn't a large majority.)
I do support it.

I’m not against uspa supporting a museum. I’m against uspa giving money away for a project that has no indications that it will actually happen at some point. This a very important distinction.

Derek V

This just shows you don't understand project management. There are always costs just to see if something is even possible.

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This just shows you don't understand project management. There are always costs just to see if something is even possible.

Haha. I fully understand there is a cost to see what it will take for a project to happen. I also understand that are limits in terms of time and money before you either green light or kill a project. How long has the museum been in works? How much has been spent? My projects must produce a profit.

I asked the museum and a representive replied that they were waiting on iFly to build a tunnel next to where the museum will be built. They didn’t reply when I asked when will the tunnel will be built.

So USPA is giving money to a museum that won’t be built until the tunnel is built and they don’t know when that will be. How is this not a waste of money?

Derek V

DBCOOPER

Simple straw poll in honor of US election day. Simple yes or no without any discussion.

My next poll will be how many skydivers can read and comprehend instructions.

Hooknswoop

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This just shows you don't understand project management. There are always costs just to see if something is even possible.

Haha. I fully understand there is a cost to see what it will take for a project to happen. I also understand that are limits in terms of time and money before you either green light or kill a project. How long has the museum been in works? How much has been spent? My projects must produce a profit.

I asked the museum and a representive replied that they were waiting on iFly to build a tunnel next to where the museum will be built. They didn’t reply when I asked when will the tunnel will be built.

So USPA is giving money to a museum that won’t be built until the tunnel is built and they don’t know when that will be. How is this not a waste of money?

Derek V

If you know that stop misleading readers that don't understand project management. Also as you may know public sector projects, especially ones that can be funded from many different sources with many of them being public take even longer, 10-15 years type projects. You probably know that some projects take decades and a lot of money just to do tests and figure out permitting. While that likely isn't the case with a simple building, people need to know there are always costs before a project gets the green light and it seems that the museum is still in that stage.

LeeroyJenkins

***

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This just shows you don't understand project management. There are always costs just to see if something is even possible.

Haha. I fully understand there is a cost to see what it will take for a project to happen. I also understand that are limits in terms of time and money before you either green light or kill a project. How long has the museum been in works? How much has been spent? My projects must produce a profit.

I asked the museum and a representive replied that they were waiting on iFly to build a tunnel next to where the museum will be built. They didn’t reply when I asked when will the tunnel will be built.

So USPA is giving money to a museum that won’t be built until the tunnel is built and they don’t know when that will be. How is this not a waste of money?

Derek V

If you know that stop misleading readers that don't understand project management. Also as you may know public sector projects, especially ones that can be funded from many different sources with many of them being public take even longer, 10-15 years type projects. You probably know that some projects take decades and a lot of money just to do tests and figure out permitting. While that likely isn't the case with a simple building, people need to know there are always costs before a project gets the green light and it seems that the museum is still in that stage.

I don't have to be a project manager to see when a project is going off the rails.

The costs before were not associated with USPA at all. USPA donated some staff time for administration and such, but the costs were supposed to be forever zero to members. Now costs and complexities have increased dramatically with lots of pie in the sky promises.

I know several tunnel owners and have discussed this with them, they do not see how this is going to make money. Tunnels are not the cash cows that people think (the one in San Diego has already closed and is probably going to become a homeless services center). They are not huge tourist draws either, they are great for kids' birthday parties. And for blowing through piles of cash.

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My next poll will be how many skydivers can read and comprehend instructions.

Haha! I doubt it's because we CAN'T........it's just that we don't very much care to! (at least as long as lives don't depend on it)

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I’m against uspa giving money away for a project that has no indications that it will actually happen at some point.

Thanks for the clarification.
Your post and baronn's seem to indicate that the project has gone on for a very long time:

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...that will never get finished even in another 40 yrs.

The word "another" seems to indicate that it has been in the works for 40 years already?

I am a much newer member of USPA and do not know the history; a quick search on the web does not turn up anything that old about it. Maybe someone could post a quick summary on the history and when it really started? (If it was really 40 years ago--I would tend to think it's not going to happen--but baronn, you've used hyperbole before, so I don't necessarily trust that statement by itself)

I have donated repeatedly to the museum as an individual, but do not think the USPA should.

377

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If you know that stop misleading readers that don't understand project management.

I am not misleading anyone;

"Good day, iFLY has identified a few pieces of real estate in North Orlando and are in discussions with the developers; that is the most we can tell you at this point in time.

I hope that answers your question. Please let me know if I can be of further assistance.

From: DEREK VANBOESCHOTEN
Sent: Thursday, August 30, 2018 2:19 PM
To: Nancy (Kemble) Wilhelm
Subject: Re: your question

What is iFLY’s timeline?
Sent from my iPad

On Aug 30, 2018, at 08:29, Nancy (Kemble) Wilhelm wrote:
Good morning, as soon I answer your question, I will be wrong. However the best estimate we can give you is that we are three-four years from opening the doors. However, if iFLY accelerates their timeline, we will move sooner.

If I can be of further assistance, please do not hesitate to contact me. Thank you for your interest in the International Skydiving Museum & Hall of Fame.

Nancy (Kemble) Wilhelm
Museum Administrator
International Skydiving Museum & Hall of Fame
1648 Taylor Road, Suite 514
Port Orange, FL 32128
Direct Line 407-900-9997
(C) 302-897-4051
[email protected]
www.skydivingmuseum.org

"Presenting the Dream of Human Flight"

The museum is not waiting on "tests and figure out permitting".

They are waiting on iFly, something I know a bit about.

Derek V

The misleading comment was more for skyfox2007 than you.

My point for everyone, is that it costs money to see if a project is even going to happen. So being upset that money is going towards something that isn't a guarantee is ridiculous.

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I am a much newer member of USPA and do not know the history; a quick search on the web does not turn up anything that old about it. Maybe someone could post a quick summary on the history and when it really started? (If it was really 40 years ago--I would tend to think it's not going to happen--

Look at the start date here: http://apps.sos.wv.gov/business/charities/detail.aspx?OrgID=6786

01/01/1972

Or here: http://skydivingmuseum.org/trustees
"Established the American Museum of Sport Parachuting and Air Safety in 1972 as a not-for-profit corporation, which is now the International Skydiving Museum & Hall of Fame"

Or you could look at this: http://www.skyxtreme.com/archive/march2000/features.html

"The AMSPAS, incorporated in 1986 as a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit association"

Here is a thread from 2003: /cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=333816;search_string=Museum;#333816

The Hall of Fame was started in 2010

So it was started in 1972. The name changed in 1986. Then it was added to in 2010.

Few other details. It lists the primary address as the USPA HQ.
The mailing address seems to be a UPS store in Port Orange FL... Next to Spruce Creek SCUBA. Actually been there, not even an office, just a UPS store. https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2zee77/international-skydiving-museum-hall-of-fame-corporation


Bill Ottley donated money in 1972. The USPA and the PIA gave them (IIRC) 25K each as seed money in 1986. The USPA has given it 300K dollars in support OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS. /cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=150716;


They have been talking about the "Experience" for 10 years: /cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3310144;search_string=USPA%20Museum;#3310144

It was supposed to be next to the USPA... Didn't happen. Now it is supposed to be next to a tunnel... That does not yet have plans to be built.

Ron

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I am a much newer member of USPA and do not know the history; a quick search on the web does not turn up anything that old about it. Maybe someone could post a quick summary on the history and when it really started? (If it was really 40 years ago--I would tend to think it's not going to happen--

Look at the start date here: http://apps.sos.wv.gov/business/charities/detail.aspx?OrgID=6786

01/01/1972

Or here: http://skydivingmuseum.org/trustees
"Established the American Museum of Sport Parachuting and Air Safety in 1972 as a not-for-profit corporation, which is now the International Skydiving Museum & Hall of Fame"

Or you could look at this: http://www.skyxtreme.com/archive/march2000/features.html

"The AMSPAS, incorporated in 1986 as a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit association"

Here is a thread from 2003: /cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=333816;search_string=Museum;#333816

The Hall of Fame was started in 2010

So it was started in 1972. The name changed in 1986. Then it was added to in 2010.

Few other details. It lists the primary address as the USPA HQ.
The mailing address seems to be a UPS store in Port Orange FL... Next to Spruce Creek SCUBA. Actually been there, not even an office, just a UPS store. https://www.corporationwiki.com/p/2zee77/international-skydiving-museum-hall-of-fame-corporation


Bill Ottley donated money in 1972. The USPA and the PIA gave them (IIRC) 25K each as seed money in 1986. The USPA has given it 300K dollars in support OVER THE LAST 25 YEARS. /cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?do=post_attachment;postatt_id=150716;


They have been talking about the "Experience" for 10 years: /cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=3310144;search_string=USPA%20Museum;#3310144

It was supposed to be next to the USPA... Didn't happen. Now it is supposed to be next to a tunnel... That does not yet have plans to be built.

haha, looks like government work.

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haha, looks like government work.

Looks like a waste of USPA’s members money.

Derek V

Rich Grimm wrote an Excellent letter about the Skydiving Museum Boondoggle.
It's in your October 2018 Parachutist Magazine on page 6.
The title of the Letter is "Are Our Dues Spent Wisely."
This takes you to it https://uspa.org/p/Article/letters-57

George Bush SR was the honorary chairman for the museum. Probably the very best guy to actually help get something done with this whole debacle. Now that he is gone, it only adds another challenge. Pretty sad that this couldn't have gotten done in his lifetime. I guess living to be 94 just wasn't long enuff. Shameful.

Wow, I don't even know what to say to your previous comment.

Bottom line, any financial transaction (non-investment sale) in this country requires one of two things on part of a seller, per US consumer law:

1. The good or service I paid for
2. A full refund

The money that I pay USPA is NOT an investment. So no, technically they can't use my money to investigate a potential project. The decision to dump an annual sum into this "future" museum amounts to nothing less than robbing USPA members of a few dollars that would most certainly be better spent promoting our sport in other, more feasible ways.

skyfox2007

Wow, I don't even know what to say to your previous comment.

Bottom line, any financial transaction (non-investment sale) in this country requires one of two things on part of a seller, per US consumer law:

1. The good or service I paid for
2. A full refund

The money that I pay USPA is NOT an investment. So no, technically they can't use my money to investigate a potential project. The decision to dump an annual sum into this "future" museum amounts to nothing less than robbing USPA members of a few dollars that would most certainly be better spent promoting our sport in other, more feasible ways.

You're very good. You should be a lawyer.

This is $150K spread out over six years. I am going to assume that someone in USPA did some financial analysis on this and feels we can do this with no adverse impact on the membership.

However, if there is one dues hike within those six years, USPA will appear to be spending money like a 12-year-old, drunken sailor.

(With apologies to 12 year olds, drunks, and sailors.)