USPA continues to fund ISMHOF

I know this will be wasted on you, but here goes. 

On 8/16/2019 at 8:16 AM, baronn said:

Apparently the board doesnt care about how members funds are spent or what they are used for.

This is  logical fallacy. 

On 8/16/2019 at 7:05 PM, baronn said:

Apparently the entire board doesn't feel the members funds deserve any oversight of how they are being used.

This is the same logical fallacy. 

On 8/16/2019 at 7:05 PM, baronn said:

They clearly don't care about this project EVER getting completed and so far NOBODY has taken the responsible position of overseeing anything with this

This is two things. First it's the same logical fallacy as before. Second it is not the responsibility of the USPA Board members to oversee a project that is ran by a different organization. 

On 8/16/2019 at 7:12 PM, baronn said:

They agreed to use members funds to get this project to completion.

This is false, they agreed to use member funds to help the project. If they agreed the use member funds to get the project to completion, member funds would be funding the rest of the project. Which it isn't, so you're wrong. 

On 8/17/2019 at 6:42 PM, baronn said:

in almost 50 yrs haven't so much as put a plan in place?

Just because you don't know something doesn't mean no one knows it. 

On 8/17/2019 at 6:42 PM, baronn said:

Do they support a few individuals that operate with continued immunity to any kind of oversight?

This is false on two fronts. If you are talking about the USPA Board the voters provide oversight in the form of elections, reading/attending board meetings and contacting their representative member. If you are talking about the ISMHF, it is ran by a board of trustees. The reason there is a board is so they can have oversight on each other and generally there is someone that can replace trustees. Now just because I don't know if there is someone that can replace a trustee, doesn't mean that person doesn't exist. Last, if you are saying the USPA should have oversight on the ISMHF, well yeah, you are wrong there too. That isn't how that works. Could the USPA call them out on things? Sure, but that isn't real oversight. For there to oversight there must be authority. 

On 8/18/2019 at 7:30 AM, baronn said:

The only thing to show for all of this is a pie in the sky rendition of a facility attached to an Ifly that, at this point is not even in the planning process for completion.

Again, just because you don't know something doesn't mean no one knows it. 

On 8/18/2019 at 7:38 AM, baronn said:

maybe they can apply for a Guinness world record for most delayed project in history.

While probably sarcastic, it just shows how, uhhhhhhhh, your.... inability to use google, or general knowledge of history.  

On 8/18/2019 at 7:46 AM, baronn said:

You shude also give an update of how much has been given, specifically where those funds were placed and what they are being used for. As stewards of members money, you have a fiduciary responsibility to know where/what that is being used for. 

This needs to be broken down. first, if you want to know how much has been given, why not look it up? It is public information, and has been posted here the last time you brought this up. Second, again, it is not the USPA Boards responsibility to manage the funds of a completely separate organization, the entire premise of that is ridiculous. Third, the where and what is simple, it is being used by the ISMHF non profit to build a skydiving museum. 

Last, if you came in here, made some logical argument, didn't say ignorant things, people might be on your side, but you don't. 

Apparently you didn't read any of my posts. The whole point of this, was to point out how a project that has been in the works for almost half a century, still isn't anywhere near completion. How is that a fallacy? The BOD has a fiduciary responsibility to how members funds are used. Throwing money at this project with no semblance of any plan to get it done, is not only wrong, it's stupid. Show me how that has ever worked in the history of the planet?

Yer quick to point out an incorrect opinion but, fail to provide any facts. Keep defending this kind of stupidity, yer doing a terrific job of that......

10 hours ago, billvon said:

They are good stewards of their time, then. 

Or embarrassed. Sheeple like you are what allow irresponsible behavior like this to continue. Do you pay USPA dues?

6 minutes ago, baronn said:

Sheeple like you are what allow irresponsible behavior like this to continue. Do you pay USPA dues? 

Now you are crossing the line from merely being annoying to being insulting. Do you pay dues? What does that make you?

35 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

Now you are crossing the line from merely being annoying to being insulting. Do you pay dues? What does that make you?

Is this what insulted you?

Sheeple

I wude be also. You can change that. Choice is yours. Instead of avoiding the question on the dues, you could simply answer it. Yes, I am a dues paying member of the USPA. Watching the BOD give those funds to an organization that has an almost 50 yr track record of failure and in the next breath, asking for more money, is unacceptable to me. I don't mind funding this to get it done but, with this kind of record and complete lack of credibility, it's a reasonable request to ask for oversight and updates on progress. When funds are donated for projects like this, there is an expectation they will be used for what they were asked for and get the project finished. The lack of any response from any BOD member seems to indicate they simply don't care. Any of them can come here and voice an opinion or a fact. So far, that hasn't happened

1 minute ago, baronn said:

Instead of avoiding the question on the dues, you could simply answer it.

I am Canadian. I belong to CSPA, as stated just a little bit up thread. If you don't understand how name calling is insulting, or that calling people "sheeple" is insulting, there is little I can say about that. It's not that I don't agree with you that USPA should not have funded the museum. It's just your lack of understanding that BoD members who did are not fools, they just made a different decision at a meeting and now are standing by it. But hey, maybe if you just keep on berating and insulting people and showing off your unique non-sheeple spelling skills you will convert them all. But more likely you will just start looking more and more like someone to ignore.

2 hours ago, baronn said:

Apparently you didn't read any of my posts. The whole point of this, was to point out how a project that has been in the works for almost half a century, still isn't anywhere near completion. How is that a fallacy?

oh another fallacy, you are on a roll!

2 hours ago, baronn said:

Yer quick to point out an incorrect opinion but, fail to provide any facts.

I am only here to dismantle your crappy comments. 

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Sheeple like you are what allow irresponsible behavior like this to continue.

I missed this fallacy first time around! Barron, try harder.

You are now up to three different fallacies. 

Oh and let's add a little context to what baronn is complaining about. This is stolen from another thread.

Quote

The USPA has a total financial commitment of just under $300k with more than half being contributed over the next 6 years. Since $112k has already been donated as of 2018 that means the rest will be donated over the next 6 years. At the end of 2017 there were roughly 39k USPA members. Assuming membership stays the same over the next 6 years this means the USPA has agreed to contribute  ~ $0.75 of each membership fee towards the museum for the next 6 years. 

~$0.75 per year, I take poops that cost people more than that. 

Actually, Baronn, I will give you $5 if you don't bring this up again till 2025.... so I don't have to read your crappy comments on the topic. 

18 minutes ago, meat.missile said:

Actually, Baronn, I will give you $5 if you don't bring this up again till 2025.... so I don't have to read your crappy comments on the topic. 

You do have the option of using you settings to ignore his posts. So far I've only given that honour to one person myself.

1 minute ago, gowlerk said:

You do have the option of using you settings to ignore his posts. So far I've only given that honour to one person myself.

True, however, someone needs to point out his crappy arguments so people less well versed in the subject understand.

RABBLE! RABBLE! RABBLE! RABBLE!

On 8/19/2019 at 3:29 PM, billvon said:

He can ask if he wants.  I am hoping the BOD have better things to do than to humor an angry crank - but that's up to them.

The BOD actually owes the membership an explanation. I know there has been buyer’s remorse from some BOD members that voted yes to the donations.

This was presented as “If the USPA donates, the other national organizations like CSPA, BPA and others would donate”. As far as I know, this hasn’t happened from the other associations.

Our competition teams beg for funding and DZOs across the land are under attack from the NIMBY crowds. Our dues should fund those situations.

I have spoken at great length with my friend Jim McCormick about their plans for the museum. It’s currently a very poor business model that will need $400,000 to $500,000 in yearly contributions to stay open.

This was a poor use of our dues,IMHO.

I am all in on a museum, and HOF, and have donated privately to it. However this isn’t a wise USPA funding situation in my opinion.

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 12:06 PM, meat.missile said:

True, however, someone needs to point out his crappy arguments so people less well versed in the subject understand.

So yer a Crusader! 

Always good to have purpose in life. Happy to take yer money, tell me after you get yer next allowance and I'll forward my PayPal info.

Still waiting for you to show us where I have any of the historical facts wrong. Lots of accusation of "Fallacy" but, no facts to back it. Perhaps its just a 'Phallic" envy syndrome. Mite explain the Meat Missile handle....

On ‎8‎/‎20‎/‎2019 at 11:24 AM, billvon said:

I am a sheeple!  I love it!  

I've gone to USPA three times to get something I've wanted.  I've created course plans, I've written articles for Parachutist on the topics, I've collected petitions and I've gone to BOD meetings - and organized trips for other supporters of my plans.   The actual BOD meetings were important, but even more importantly was the opportunity to talk to BOD people outside the meeting, in the bar or restaurant before/after the meeting.

And today we have an ISP and a rule that requires separating landing areas in the group member pledge.  Oh, and USPA doesn't have a ban on mentioning BASE in the magazine any more.  (And BTW I was far from the only person advocating for any of that.  But together we got enough support to get those changes through.)

You bitch on the Internet and do nothing else other than obediently mailing your check in, like a good sheep.

Which one of us is a "sheeple" again?

 

I pay my dues so I can keep my ratings and jump. My DZ is not a GM. Doubt it will ever be. Don't think that qualifies under the Sheeple definition but, that's your call. Don't believe pointing out what is clearly a problem, qualifies as "Bitching". If the USPA or the ISMHOF do nothing to fix this, I am prepared to attempt to remedy it. No guarantee I will be successful but, I think I can find a solution. Time will tell but, you'll know sooner than 50 yrs. 1st step is to bring awareness....

12 minutes ago, baronn said:

Mite explain the Meat Missile handle....

Hi baron,

You might win a few converts if you stay out of the gutter.

FWIW I also oppose using any money other than direct donations to fund the boondoggle.

Jerry Baumchen

1 hour ago, baronn said:

Still waiting for you to show us where I have any of the historical facts wrong. Lots of accusation of "Fallacy" but, no facts to back it. Perhaps its just a 'Phallic" envy syndrome. Mite explain the Meat Missile handle....

2 more fallacies! YAY!

Jerry,

I think there are only two ways the HOF and Museum stay viable and open for the long haul.

Build at a large warm weather DZ. Make a nice exhibit hall. Put in a banquet facility that can be rented out for all kinds of events. Host the yearly inductions and dinner there. Keep it open 3 days a week with volunteers.

or...

Put it at an existing air museum that gets a lot of annual visitors.

Some donors are getting very frustrated.

14 minutes ago, grimmie said:

 

Put it at an existing air museum that gets a lot of annual visitors.

Hi Rich,

IMO this is the only way it can pay it's own way over the long haul.

Jerry Baumchen

Billvon, aren't you a mod? No one is so stupid they don't know fallacy's make what they say invalid. Baronn is a troll. 

What is your PayPal, I am serious about giving you 5 bucks. There is one condition though, if you do bitch about this again the mods get to suspend you for ehhh a month. oh and if you dox me you get banned, I believe that's a normal rule. 

8 hours ago, meat.missile said:

Billvon, aren't you a mod? No one is so stupid they don't know fallacy's make what they say invalid. Baronn is a troll. 

What is your PayPal, I am serious about giving you 5 bucks. There is one condition though, if you do bitch about this again the mods get to suspend you for ehhh a month. oh and if you dox me you get banned, I believe that's a normal rule. 

Myself, I don't believe he is a troll. I think he is a crusader of sorts who feels strongly and thinks going on and on about it will somehow make a difference. A troll is someone who posts just to get reactions from others. Ironically, I do see that he has called YOU a crusader!

2 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Myself, I don't believe he is a troll. I think he is a crusader of sorts who feels strongly and thinks going on and on about it will somehow make a difference. A troll is someone who posts just to get reactions from others. Ironically, I do see that he has called YOU a crusader!

Going on an on can work when the persons argument isn't riddled with fallacies and false premises. When that was pointed out to them, they doubled down with more fallacious comments instead of correcting the original comments. 

1 hour ago, meat.missile said:

Going on an on can work when the persons argument isn't riddled with fallacies and false premises. When that was pointed out to them, they doubled down with more fallacious comments instead of correcting the original comments. 

Yes, he clearly wants more than to just point out that he disagrees with the BoD. I think he must figure that if he only brays loud enough and long enough they will not only change the decision, but also come groveling to him in thanks for correcting them.