Beginner WL

1 hour ago, sundevil777 said:

Please consider that we’ve seen bad things happen. Being blunt is a good thing.

Also consider that other newer jumpers will be reading this thread. While there was an element of , let's say snideness, in the post. there was also a number of truths. I would consider the post to be aimed at a larger audience than just you.

16 hours ago, yobnoc said:

Ultimately, you are a grown up skydiver with an A license. You can do what ever you choose.

In the end this is the biggest truth. ( I know it's not really a quote from you, the new quote system here is lacking) I really believe in this principle. Within reason we all need to respect people's choices. Yours are not unreasonable, but perhaps not ideal.

On 6/17/2019 at 8:11 PM, yobnoc said:

Hi all!  I'm sure I'm going to catch some serious crap for this, but here it goes anyway:

So, what are you pissed off about? Personally, I would advise you to get up to at least 200 jumps then if all is well getting a 190 to replace the 210. And btw, as you are a regular poster I can also say that I generally like your attitude.

7 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Also consider that other newer jumpers will be reading this thread. While there was an element of , let's say snideness, in the post. there was also a number of truths. I would consider the post to be aimed at a larger audience than just you.

 

In the end this is the biggest truth. ( I know it's not really a quote from you, the new quote system here is lacking) I really believe in this principle. Within reason we all need to respect people's choices. Yours are not unreasonable, but perhaps not ideal.

 

So, what are you pissed off about? Personally, I would advise you to get up to at least 200 jumps then if all is well getting a 190 to replace the 210. And btw, as you are a regular poster I can also say that I generally like your attitude.

Yeah, you know, there’s a difference between giving constructive criticism - like sending a link to a helpful article or asking probing questions - and wholly misrepresenting my original post in order to satisfy someone’s need to be a bully. 

I know full well that it’s not just hurting me if I get injured or killed doing this sport; it also hurts the community as a whole. 

What I don’t get is the attitude that some people have (there seems to be one at every DZ) that the best way to get your point across is to bully someone or patronize them as if they were an adolescent. I’m not here to measure dicks. 

As for the comment about “lashing out,” and how I should be banned by the mods: I can only assume you think I should be banned because I won’t put up with being called stupid or having my words twisted or misrepresented. If that’s the end result: fine. But I refuse to let someone un-man me like that. You give respect, you get respect. Simple as that. Look back at all the folks who voiced honest and blunt criticism without having to resort to bullying tactics, and see my response. “I appreciate your input,” “Thank you for the helpful links.”

Let’s not promote being shitty toward each other for the sake of being shitty when there are much better and more constructive ways to get our point across.

That was bullying? It is not there.

I did not say you should be banned, I said you deserve a warning for a personal attack. Perhaps I do too. This thread is really unattractive. This nastiness is so wrong to be in this forum.

9 hours ago, sundevil777 said:

I think you are severely overreacting. You should somehow find it within yourself to acquire a much thicker skin. Everything that was said to you in the above quote was absolutely appropriate. Maybe the mark twain quote was unnecessary, but that is all. I am certain that 100% of experienced jumpers I know would agree.

You expected to get shit, you admitted it in your first post. When you got wise advice, you lashed out in a way that should get a warning from the moderators. You might as well have warned us to be extra gentle with you. Too bad, this isn’t tiddlywinks,so man up and own it. 

Please consider that we’ve seen bad things happen. Being blunt is a good thing.

The most "offensive" thing I "lashed out" with was saying "grow up"

Yet you're telling me to "man up."

Should you get a warning too?  I'd contend that your chauvinistic remark was worse than telling someone to grow up.  Am I acting too girly for your liking? 

No, I don't think it's actually any of that.  What you want is for me to "know my place," and to allow someone to disrespect me and misrepresent my statements without challenge.  Won't happen.

I'm all about constructive criticism (see prior posts on this thread), but there's no need for destructive criticism at all here.  What you're advocating for is just simply excusing bad behavior and mistaking a sport we do for fun as if it's some sort of ruling class/peasant class society. 

All I'm saying is don't be shitty.  It's completely unnecessary.  I won't be chided into silence for standing up to a bully.

11 minutes ago, sundevil777 said:

That was bullying? It is not there.

I did not say you should be banned, I said you deserve a warning for a personal attack. Perhaps I do too. This thread is really unattractive. This nastiness is so wrong to be in this forum.

Yeah, it was going really well with lots of good advice and questions I hadn't asked myself, as well as suggestions of how to inprove, until UFK or whatever his name is decided to derail it.  I asked for the mods to lock the thread, but he said it hadn't yet gotten to a point where he saw the need for that. 

Please consider that you acknowledged advice, but I suggest it is reasonable for some to conclude that it didn't/wasn't going to make the impact it ought to. Please consider that you're not the first to show this trait. You are showing the ability to disregard the advice of your jumping elders repeatedly, despite paying lip service to how it is valuable.

Don't blame others for the derailment. You were not bullied. You got worked up about next to nothing.

2 minutes ago, sundevil777 said:

Please consider that you acknowledged advice, but I suggest it is reasonable for some to conclude that it didn't/wasn't going to make the impact it ought to. Please consider that you're not the first to show this trait. You are showing the ability to disregard the advice of your jumping elders repeatedly, despite paying lip service to how it is valuable.

Don't blame others for the derailment. You were not bullied. You got worked up about next to nothing.

Your assumptions are incorrect.  I've taken a lot of advice from people.  The problem is when you get  conflicting advice and how to sort through it.  I was encouraged when I was getting ready to buy gear to start out with a 190 main by someone who had been in the sport for almost a decade and who is a senior rigger and who had seen me fly a 200 several times.  I also had another person S&TA qualified tell me that was a bad idea and I should start out with something right around what I was flying as a student.  I ended up taking their advice together, mulling over it, and settling on 10 square feet less than the student gear I was jumping (I mainly jumped a 220 as a student, but had a few jumps with a 200).  So I went with a 210 Main at a 1.2 WL. 

I'll say this: I'm not interested in advice from ufk.  You say I'm overreacting, but you're looking at it through a biased lens; you don't see at all how he misrepresented and made incorrect assumptions to fuel his rant?  Do you think I'd still be allowed at the same DZ if they thought I was making unsafe decisions and/or causing a safety hazard to others?  Don't pretend that there isn't a pack of feverish people at every drop zone looking to find (or make someone out to be) the next "sky god" and mercilessly torture that person until they run them off.  I've witnessed it at every DZ I've been to.  I won't be that person, which is why I ask permission to do just about everything short of using the bathroom when I'm at my home DZ, and I really don't like my character maligned by people who assume that all newbies to the sport are all the same. 

This is why personal attacks generally garner a warning; it tends to get messy when you call someone names. 

Just now, billvon said:

The reason you would get banned are personal attacks, period.   Nothing to do with "putting up" with stuff.  You are free to block that poster and never read his postings again.  If you choose to read and respond, you'll have to follow the rules like anyone else.

It wasn't a rant.  His advice was reasonable - if delivered in less than politically correct terms.  You can take it or ignore it as you like.  But it is a little odd to come here asking for advice, apparently understanding that you may get "some crap" along with it - then react angrily when you get said advice.  Please keep that in mind in the future.

My initial question had to do with what metrics I should use as a guide for when it's appropriate to downsize. 

I don't see how any of his reply was appropriate for the given question, but ok.

Does that apply both ways about following the rules?  If he has the choice to read and respond to my post, is it OK for him to break the rules and start out with a personal attack calling me stupid? Also, so I can avoid it in the future: what specifically did I say that might be considered a personal attack? 

I'm sorry, Bill.  I'm not meaning to be argumentative with you specifically.  It just feels like a bit of an injustice for me to be called out for levying a personal attack (which I still don't know how anything I said is a personal attack), when I'm simply reacting to someone who lobbed one at me.

1 minute ago, billvon said:

"What kind of miserable life do you have . . .what's so wrong with your life  . .  .Grow up."

It was not OK from either party.  Since it de-escalated on its own, I figured that a word to the wise was sufficient.

Thank you for the clarification

This thread is a prime example of why I discuss downsizing with experienced people who I trust and who have actually seen me fly, rather than on dz.com.

11 minutes ago, Orthoclase said:

This thread is a prime example of why I discuss downsizing with experienced people who I trust and who have actually seen me fly, rather than on dz.com.

Hindsight is 20/20, but I did get a couple good links and some good points to think on.

On 6/26/2019 at 2:53 PM, yobnoc said:

I'm not looking for approval, champ. 

 

The "locals" are encouraging me to downsize quicker than I had intended. 

 

My accuracy isn't bad.  It's just not where I want it, which is dead-nuts because I'm a perfectionist.

 

The discussion about buying used vs new gear had nothing to do with what kind of gear I purchased; and I've gotten some sideways glances about the reserve size once it comes up in conversation. 

 

What kind of miserable life do you have that you go full keyboard warrior with someone you don't know?  Do you think that the meaner you sound, the more likely I am to hear you?  Take a look at your comment vs the comments of others on this thread and ask yourself what's so wrong with your life that you're trying to belittle a grown man who you've never met? 

 

Grow up.

Whoa....

I brought up some inconsistencies in your posts and that’s “going full keyboard warrior”?

I’ve been jumping almost 30 years, held instructional ratings for 28 years and been  an IE for over 20. I’ve seen a lot. I loaded up a friend on a backboard 25 years ago because he landed under a small reserve, didn’t time his flare right, and broke his back. He had hundreds of jumps under 7 cell canopies. I’ve seen highly experienced people get injured or killed, some times their fault, sometimes just luck of the draw.

If I was a little insensitive when I posted, maybe it was because just a couple of night ago  I was getting advice on landing my new canopy from someone whose last landing looked like a freestyle Skydive. I know enough to ignore his comments, but a low time skydiver wouldn’t.

You are a licensed skydiver. I tell students that getting an A license means you can be as smart or as stupid as you wish. Jump whatever gear you want in whatever conditions you want. It means that USPA considers you a grown up. Your choice as to whether you act like one.

I think that with a wingloading of 1.2 on your 210 with 'only' 87 jumps (according to your profile) you'd better keep that 210 for some time.
I have only 140 jumps in total, jump a Silhouette 190 (+- 80 jumps now) and have a wingloading of 1.1. My reserve is a PDR193 just because I didn't want a reserve that is smaller then my main.

My noobish advice: jump around 200+ jumps on your 210 before even thinking about downsizing. At least that's what I'm planning to do and even then I'm not sure if I would go down. I'm a bit older than you so I don't need al the speed stuff, I'm happy under my 190, flying around in the sky. And to be honest, on no wind days I'm happy it is a 190. Landings are fast enough then.

My goal is to have a great and exiting time up there but definitely going home in one piece.

Take your time. In the end I guess that it all depends on how many jumps you do a year. My goal is to do around 100 jumps a year but I understand that if you do 300/year that you'll want downsize quicker.

7 hours ago, ufk22 said:

Whoa....

I brought up some inconsistencies in your posts and that’s “going full keyboard warrior”?

I’ve been jumping almost 30 years, held instructional ratings for 28 years and been  an IE for over 20. I’ve seen a lot. I loaded up a friend on a backboard 25 years ago because he landed under a small reserve, didn’t time his flare right, and broke his back. He had hundreds of jumps under 7 cell canopies. I’ve seen highly experienced people get injured or killed, some times their fault, sometimes just luck of the draw.

If I was a little insensitive when I posted, maybe it was because just a couple of night ago  I was getting advice on landing my new canopy from someone whose last landing looked like a freestyle Skydive. I know enough to ignore his comments, but a low time skydiver wouldn’t.

You are a licensed skydiver. I tell students that getting an A license means you can be as smart or as stupid as you wish. Jump whatever gear you want in whatever conditions you want. It means that USPA considers you a grown up. Your choice as to whether you act like one.

I appreciate your thoughtful response.  The knee-jerk reactions for both of us were improper, and so I apologize for my reaction.  I recognize that you are a very experienced skydiver, and I can tell from a glance at your profile that you know a lot about the sport; I knew that before I responded to you the first time.  I'm not immune to good advice.  As I stated before: I don't take a shit at my DZ without asking permission.  You know from your experience in the sport that everyone has an opinion on what you should be doing, and sometimes those opinions don't match up or are polar opposite, and as a beginner I'm left trying to figure out which D-Licensed, AFFI-with-decades-of-experience to listen to.  As someone on the outside, I can see how you were trying to do your best to scare some sense into a young punk in the game; I'm just not as young as I look and I haven't been talked to like that for a long time. 

Again, I shouldn't have reacted as harshly as I did.  Maybe we'll cross paths and clink beers someday after a long day at the DZ.

Even though I don’t know YOU, I know you. Anyone who has been in this sport for a lot of years has know a lot of you’s. This is not a personal attack. It just is. We all thought we were different, above average, and could progress faster than those other guys and gals.

This sport is full of type-A personalities. It’s the nature of the sport. I was you 30 years ago. Fearless, self assured and as I went from student to licensed jumper, smarter than I was. I’ve made more mistakes than you will probably ever make in this sport, because back then the training, the knowledge and the abilities of the really good jumpers was no where near where it is today. After 30 years, I know how much I don’t know and how much I still have to learn in this sport.

I also tip-toed around the experienced regulars at the DZ. It takes a long time and a lot of jumps to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to skydiving advice.

There are two way to go from here, either live long enough to figure out how much you don’t know or let your ego (not specific to you, this applies to everyone) limit you. The next few hundred  jumps will get you one place or the other. I really don’t care if you’re honest with us, just be honest with yourself.

Google (generic term, I hate google) Dunning Kruger effect and realize it does apply to all of us.

If we ever meet, I’ll get the first round, but you, having many more “firsts”, will have to cover the rest.

Fair enough. By that time, I might just be able to give you a bit of a challenge. At 6’4,  I’ve got a wicked fast tracking speed. Drinks on me.

1 hour ago, ufk22 said:

Even though I don’t know YOU, I know you. Anyone who has been in this sport for a lot of years has know a lot of you’s. This is not a personal attack. It just is. We all thought we were different, above average, and could progress faster than those other guys and gals.

This sport is full of type-A personalities. It’s the nature of the sport. I was you 30 years ago. Fearless, self assured and as I went from student to licensed jumper, smarter than I was. I’ve made more mistakes than you will probably ever make in this sport, because back then the training, the knowledge and the abilities of the really good jumpers was no where near where it is today. After 30 years, I know how much I don’t know and how much I still have to learn in this sport.

I also tip-toed around the experienced regulars at the DZ. It takes a long time and a lot of jumps to separate the wheat from the chaff when it comes to skydiving advice.

There are two way to go from here, either live long enough to figure out how much you don’t know or let your ego (not specific to you, this applies to everyone) limit you. The next few hundred  jumps will get you one place or the other. I really don’t care if you’re honest with us, just be honest with yourself.

Google (generic term, I hate google) Dunning Kruger effect and realize it does apply to all of us.

If we ever meet, I’ll get the first round, but you, having many more “firsts”, will have to cover the rest.

Also, I’m B-licensed now. So suck it (sarcasm)

In my previous life I was a nuclear power plant operator in the Navy. The most important thing I learned during that time is that no matter how much you think you know, you don’t know shit. But that applies up and down the chain; I had to correct my O-6 Captain (as an E-5) on a misconception he had held for 20 years. He looked up the correct answer, and conceded that he was wrong. 

The lesson I learned was to always listen intently to what someone says to you, regardless of their experience. Question it, analyze it, and if they’re incorrect, don’t be intimidated into being a “yes man” for fear of getting in trouble. Integrity is paramount. Know what you know and be honest about what you don’t. 

I also majored in psych. I know Dunning-Kruger. And I am riddled with doubt, no matter what my expertise is on any given subject. 

I hope I do get to jump with you someday, honestly. And I promise to have a wide open mind to whatever pointers and pearls of knowledge I can glean from you. 

And I’ll get you shitfaced.