What can we do about Skyride?

I was following through on the links pilotdave posted earlier in this thread, and I came across this gem in one of their FAQs at:

http://www.skydivems.com/mississippi_skydiving_questions.html

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How do you breath in freefall?
One CAN breathe in freefall - if it were necessary. However, due to the high speed of terminal freefall and vertical freefall dives, the jumper's body is exposed to O2 molecules at a much higher rate than someone walking around on the ground. The body is able to absorb the necessary O2 through the skin. This is why jumpers flap their cheeks in freefall, it presents a larger surface area to the airstream for oxygen osmosis. Once under canopy, the jumper resumes breathing normally. This is also why jumpers do not jump on cloudy days or when they might risk going through clouds. The moisture in the clouds can condense on their exposed skin surfaces preventing the absorption of the necessary oxygen.

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Last summer Perris staff told me they got 30-40 tandems per month via SkyRide in the peak (summer) season.

Since you have done more research on this than most - do you feel those 30 tandems a month are enough to keep DZs in the practice of using this service?

Because I am part of this *community* and I do no't wish to be part of a quasi legal witch hunt.

Ignorance in not what I'm pleading, instead, I would suggest it's not my place to provide information about PVSS and the business they may or may not do with SkyRide.

As I've said in PM, I don't suport an attack on someone who is trying to run a business simply because people don't like the the fact that they are doing well. To those he has stolen photos, websites, or harmed in other illegal manners, I suggest they file claim agains him. Small claims court is not expensive.

Illegal sabatoge is just plain wrong.

Please note I ma not a suporter of this man or his company, nor do I even like him. I don't like some of the business tactics he's used either, but baring the claimed theft of images I have not seen any illegal activities being performed.

Before someone throws up the students going to a DZ with a certificate and it not being accepted, I'll point out that students have been showing up to the wrong DZ since Jesus was on static line. We had a woman come out for a tandem with her daughters 2 weeks ago that called 1-800Skydive from Northern California, but showed up at Perris. Now where do you think she was booked, and who's responsible for that?

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That company is bringing people into the sport. Those people might join the USPA.

Here's the problem.

Skyride DOES NOT increase the number of potential jumpers thropugh their marketing.

Are they exploring new mediums? NO

Are they expanding the demographic? NO

Are they doing anything in anyway to increase the number on people doing FJC and Tandems NO

Are they doing anything that could potentially put a bad taste into a newbies mouth? YES

Are they capatalizing on other legit DZs marketing? YES

All skyride is doing is directing a percentage of web traffic that would normally find a legit DZ and making themselves middlemen. A potential jumper that finds their site would have found a real DZ if they weren't there. How is that increasing numbers?
What they do is parasitic in nature!
Ah crap, I'm losing it again

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If they have your DZ listed and you don't want to be...Sue them.

They claim to BE our dropzone and they have me in the meta tags as cheif instructor. 2 months ago the f***ers even called me to see if I wanted to be apart of their group! Of all the balls!

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If they use your copyrighted material....Sue them.

Not that simple. You have to sue them in Atlanta. Cost vs. return, that's a lot of money and hassle to prove your right.
(FYI we are trying to persue it now that our season is over)

I'll shut up now, this issue is really stressful to me.
...happy thoughts ... happy thoughts ... where's my stress ball?

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Last summer Perris staff told me they got 30-40 tandems per month via SkyRide in the peak (summer) season.

How many of those would Perris have done if Skyride wasn't there and wasn't skimming a percentage of the profit? Probably most!

If they were doing a lot of leg work, persuing new marketing mediums or maybe providing customer service for a small DZ who has difficulty answering his phones, then the percentage would be a justified fee for service. Those 30-40 would be on top of the regular numbers.

They are instead competing with their own member DZ for web traffic the DZ would get anyway.

I'll say it again, they are parasitc! They feed off the flow of student traffic!

We put that on our website as a joke, what a coincidence eh?

ourshttp://www.339jump.com/faq.html

Now you have me all confused. Is your dropzone related to Skyride too? You seem to have the same logo as ASC. And I'm talking about "Adventure Skydiving Connecticut," a fictional skyride-related DZ: http://www.skydiveconnecticut.com/

Dave

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Because I am part of this *community* and I do no't wish to be part of a quasi legal witch hunt.

Ignorance in not what I'm pleading, instead, I would suggest it's not my place to provide information about PVSS and the business they may or may not do with SkyRide.

I am part of the community too. And I have put in HUNDREDS of hours on the SkyRide issue. I have actively sought out comments from DZOs that support and do not support SkyRide. I personally invited (via another BOD member that was on the 'right side of the tables') Melanie Conatser to the GM Comm. meeting at the last USPA BOD mtg to get her views. She attended the mtg and was informed about USPA activities that she was not aware of, such as letters to ASC/SkyRide. I am not on the GM Comm., but Jess ensures that I can attend the pertinent parts of the mtg that deal with SkyRide. USPA is not on a quasi-legal witch-hunt.

Melanie's answer as to why they accepted SkyRide certificates was because she believed they were getting business that they would not otherwise get. Legitimate DZOs should band together to grab google and overture ad words to promote their DZs. This is a job for DZOS, not USPA. A collective DZO organization can create more business than a sole vested entity in Atlanta can. If there was ever a motivation for DZOS to band together, SkyRide has provided it and SkyRide has demonstrated the techniques that work. Heck, I'd even say I know enough about how the internet ad words work to say I could slam dunk SkyRide in lieu of real DZs. What is missing is the collaborative effort among DZs. It won't be until DZs start cooperating on an international level that we can put this puppy to rest.

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As I've said in PM, I don't suport an attack on someone who is trying to run a business simply because people don't like the the fact that they are doing well. To those he has stolen photos, websites, or harmed in other illegal manners, I suggest they file claim agains him. Small claims court is not expensive.

JP, you and others must come to grips with reality of the situation. There have been numerous documented instances of copyright violations. In order for cases to proceed, they must be filed in Atlanta, GA. In real life, Tim Eason of Canada and Paul Osbourne of Australia are not going to file suit from thousands of miles away. It just is not cost effective. US jumpers, who have photos used inappropriately, like Brent Finley's, also have a monetary obstacle to overcome. It is not until these groups of individuals and corporations band together that they will have an economic incentive to pursue legal action against SkyRide. USPA cannot be this agent for these copyright violations. The agent must be an appointed representative by the people and entities that have had material stolen or abused by SkyRide.

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Illegal sabotage is just plain wrong.

Please note I ma not a suporter of this man or his company, nor do I even like him. I don't like some of the business tactics he's used either, but baring the claimed theft of images I have not seen any illegal activities being performed.

Go look at LASkydiving.com - staff
That is the small version of this Brent Finley pic
The people in this picture are:
Back row:Ted Wagner, Mike Netzel, Kiwi Steve Woods, Julie Sessing, Mick Nutnall, Derek Thomas, Tyre Wilde, Tim Monsees, Mike (CANADA) ??, Nick Furchner
2nd Row:Ellen Thistle, Janie Jicha, Mary Traub, Beckie Thompson, Deb Henry, Ellen Monsees, Jan Meyer
1st row: John Coffman, George Jicha, Jack Farrell
This photo is also used on TN
I dare you or anyone to contact any of the above named jumpers and get a real reason that their photo is being used on two web sites that portray themselves as 'legitimate' dzs. The people in the photo have never been staff at LASkydiving or Skydive TN.
This is only one example of SkyRide's misuse of skydiving images.

Skydive Arizona's fleet photos are used on a number of SkyRide's sites.

TK Hayes' student manual has been knocked off.

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Before someone throws up the students going to a DZ with a certificate and it not being accepted, I'll point out that students have been showing up to the wrong DZ since Jesus was on static line. We had a woman come out for a tandem with her daughters 2 weeks ago that called 1-800Skydive from Northern California, but showed up at Perris. Now where do you think she was booked, and who's responsible for that?

People do sometimes show up at the wrong dz. That is not what people are complaining about.
Jim Wallace told me of a customer that got a SkyRide Certificate via SkyRide. The customer specifically asked for 'Jim Wallace Skydiving School'. SkyRide said the certificate was good there. The guy shows up at Jim's school. Jim said he did not accept the certificates, but Perris' school did. The guy did a tandem jump, but part of his first jump experience is how he was 'duped'. That (the being duped part), in my book, is not good for skydiving.
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My brother is a lawyer so i just asked him about this... Obviously he doesn't have all the facts, but he said what they do is probably illegal.

He suggested going to the police and the Better Business Bureau. You tried either of those? If they're doing something illegal (as opposed to just immoral), the police could investigate.

Dave

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Now you have me all confused. Is your dropzone related to Skyride too? You seem to have the same logo as ASC. And I'm talking about "Adventure Skydiving Connecticut," a fictional skyride-related DZ: http://www.skydiveconnecticut.com/

Dave

Tim Easton's DZ is the original Skydiving Adventures DZ.
Skyride knocks off so many domain names it is hard to keep up with them.
Here is a list of Adventure Skydiving knock-offs, but it does not have http://www.skydiveconnecticut.com/ in it.

Is your dropzone related to Skyride too? You seem to have the same logo as ASC.
This is a statement of the problem.

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I am part of the community too. And I have put in HUNDREDS of hours on the SkyRide issue.

My original involvment in this thread can be attributed to the word "we" in the thread title. Got a mouse in your pocket? No? Then who's we?

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Melanie's answer as to why they accepted SkyRide certificates was because she believed they were getting business that they would not otherwise get.

And I don't think anyone has offered proof that she's wrong. Melanie has to do what she can to keep the playground called Perris in the black. I think she (and the rest of the family/team at Perris) are doing a good job at it.

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There have been numerous documented instances of copyright violations. In order for cases to proceed, they must be filed in Atlanta, GA.

Never disputed that. Reality is the way things are. Simply because someone has a copyright doesn't mean they are absolved of the struggle to defend it. I know that all too well, as I've had photos of mine used without permision. It sucks. But untill the laws are changed we must paly withing the rules laid out.

If people see the expence of defending their rights as too high, maybe a network of people can be put together to help. Any sympathetic souls in or near GA who can facilitate the bringing of Small Claims Suits? I guarentee that being hit with 10 or 15 succesive suits will be more damaging to this man's livelyhood than "google clicks" or other sabatouge efforts I've heard about.

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Heck, I'd even say I know enough about how the internet ad words work to say I could slam dunk SkyRide in lieu of real DZs.

Lookie there. Another answer. Do it bigger and better than him, that's the "American Way"Put him out of business the way Wal-Mart is doing to businesses all over the country. Do it bigger, better, faster, and cheaper. That I can support.

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Jim Wallace told me of a customer that got a SkyRide Certificate via SkyRide. The customer specifically asked for 'Jim Wallace Skydiving School'. SkyRide said the certificate was good there. The guy shows up at Jim's school. Jim said he did not accept the certificates, but Perris' school did. The guy did a tandem jump, but part of his first jump experience is how he was 'duped'. That (the being duped part), in my book, is not good for skydiving.

And I counter with the students that show up almost weekly and say "they never told me you need shoes" or "no one said you have to weigh less than 230lbs". People are not always honest, and will do whatever it takes ITO to get what they want. Wuffos don't understand there are different businesses on a DZ, or different DZ's, or heck even why they can't make their jump today because it's "a little breezy" (30+ mph winds) I've heard some of the stories and I don't put alot of faith in them. They would be out of business quickly if they were not furfilling their customer obligations on a regular basis.

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Skydive Arizona's fleet photos are used on a number of SkyRide's sites.

Without going into the specifics of who took said photos, SDAZ's planes atten LOTS of events and opperate at many DZ's every year. It's concevable someone who bought a SkyRide ticket might end up jumping from one of them. How many other DZ's have pictures of leased A/C on their websites?

People have been throwing a fit because Skyride has "bogus" website names. So do "real" DZ's. Is Skydive San Francisco in San Francisco? Nope. Is Skydive Southern California the only one in SoCal? Nope, not even the biggest. Since Al Gore invented the internet people have been buying, selling and using web addresses to position themselves better. No difference.

People have been having a fit because Skyride directs customers past other closer DZ in favor of their participating DZ's. So what, 1800Skydive has been doing this for years. DZ recruiting has been doing this for years. Billboards have been doing this for years. Phone book adds have been doing this for years. Not fair you say? Life rarely is.

Again, I'll repeat, I'm not a fan of the copyright infringments, but the answer is there. Legal action.

Too mush of the crap being spouted about Skyride seems to stem from a jealosy that it's successful.

I'mm all for someone replacing it, but are DZO's gonna? No. It brings in ALOT of buisness. As much as 3 to 4 times what was quoted here previously.

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There have been numerous documented instances of copyright violations. In order for cases to proceed, they must be filed in Atlanta, GA.

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Never disputed that. Reality is the way things are. Simply because someone has a copyright doesn't mean they are absolved of the struggle to defend it. I know that all too well, as I've had photos of mine used without permision. It sucks. But untill the laws are changed we must paly withing the rules laid out.

If people see the expence of defending their rights as too high, maybe a network of people can be put together to help. Any sympathetic souls in or near GA who can facilitate the bringing of Small Claims Suits? I guarentee that being hit with 10 or 15 succesive suits will be more damaging to this man's livelyhood than "google clicks" or other sabatouge efforts I've heard about.

At least we agree on something.

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Heck, I'd even say I know enough about how the internet ad words work to say I could slam dunk SkyRide in lieu of real DZs.

Lookie there. Another answer. Do it bigger and better than him, that's the "American Way"Put him out of business the way Wal-Mart is doing to businesses all over the country. Do it bigger, better, faster, and cheaper. That I can support.

This is the crux of the matter. Many DZOS have the belief that SkyRide has taken all the top slots in keywords. Collectively, DZOS can take this lead back.

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And I counter with the students that show up almost weekly and say "they never told me you need shoes" or "no one said you have to weigh less than 230lbs". People are not always honest, and will do whatever it takes ITO to get what they want. Wuffos don't understand there are different businesses on a DZ, or different DZ's, or heck even why they can't make their jump today because it's "a little breezy" (30+ mph winds) I've heard some of the stories and I don't put alot of faith in them. They would be out of business quickly if they were not furfilling their customer obligations on a regular basis.

We are not talking about the generalized whuffo replies.

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Skydive Arizona's fleet photos are used on a number of SkyRide's sites.

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Without going into the specifics of who took said photos, SDAZ's planes atten LOTS of events and opperate at many DZ's every year. It's concevable someone who bought a SkyRide ticket might end up jumping from one of them. How many other DZ's have pictures of leased A/C on their websites?

People have been throwing a fit because Skyride has "bogus" website names. So do "real" DZ's. Is Skydive San Francisco in San Francisco? Nope. Is Skydive Southern California the only one in SoCal? Nope, not even the biggest. Since Al Gore invented the internet people have been buying, selling and using web addresses to position themselves better. No difference.

People are not throwing a fit because they claim to be Skydive Arizona and the dz is in Eloy. People complain about SkydiveDetroit.com or SkydiveSacramento.com web sites representing themselves as brick and mortar DZs in the area and then sending customers to DZs hundreds of miles away. Sort of like the customer, perhaps from SkydiveSacramento.com, being sent to Perris????

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People have been having a fit because Skyride directs customers past other closer DZ in favor of their participating DZ's. So what, 1800Skydive has been doing this for years. DZ recruiting has been doing this for years. Billboards have been doing this for years. Phone book adds have been doing this for years. Not fair you say? Life rarely is.

Again, I'll repeat, I'm not a fan of the copyright infringments, but the answer is there. Legal action.

Too mush of the crap being spouted about Skyride seems to stem from a jealosy that it's successful.

Man, that is it!! I'm jealous of the DZs making money. My motive has surfaced?!?!?!

Actually, I think some of the marketing techniques used by SkyRide can greatly benefit skydiving. I would hate to think that all DZS would stoop to the 'hidden charges' technique.

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I'mm all for someone replacing it, but are DZO's gonna? No. It brings in ALOT of buisness. As much as 3 to 4 times what was quoted here previously.

Ok, JP….I'm at quite a stand off point here. Earlier, you said you did not know what the dz was doing. Now you are saying my estimate is off by 3 or 4 times???
Correct me if I am incorrect, but I believe only my posts made mention of the amount of business that SkyRide brought to a DZ.

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perhaps from SkydiveSacramento.com, being sent to Perris

Davis.

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Ok, JP….I'm at quite a stand off point here. Earlier, you said you did not know what the dz was doing. Now you are saying my estimate is off by 3 or 4 times???

It was 1/2 way a cop out. It's really not my place to discuss what business PVSS or any other DZ is doing.

My estimate is just that, an informed "guestimate".

I can't believe you're defending them. I'm not a fan of 1800skydive either, but at least they only pretend that some dropzones DON'T exist, not that non existant dropzones do exist.

Comparing a DZ showing leased planes on their website with what skyride does? Not even showing a picture of a CASA during a boogie or something, but showing a type of plane that has never been used at any DZ in the area (and indicating that it is used at a fictional DZ). Going back to the Adventure Skydiving Connecticut example. CT has 2 dropzones. I don't think either one is at an airport that could support a king air, yet they show a king air on the page. How is that similar to Connecticut Parachutists showing pictures of their full time leased Super Otter?

You seem to be ok with them because they bring tandems to Perris. What if they sent all those tandems to Elsinore? Or what if they were sending all those tandems to a 182 DZ 100 miles away? Now that's the same thing that 1800 skydive might do, which is why i don't like them either. But they're at least a legitimate business. (But I'd shut em both down if I was god).

They are obviously scum trying to get a piece of the pie that doesn't need to exist. At best they're a useless middleman. 1800skydive at least sort of promotes the sport.

Now if they opened a bunch of tandem-only DZs with all the names they use somewhat near the cities they are named for, then fine, that's a business. But right now, they're just fraud artists.

Dave

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I can't believe you're defending them.

I'm not, and if you could put your knee jerk emotions aside you'd see that, and you'd see clear ways to stop them.

Well when you suggested suing I thought I was imagining things. Skydivers don't sue skydivers, right?.

But anyway I reread what you wrote and it still sounds like you're defending them. Unless you were being sarcastic.

The problem with suing them is that you have to have been directly hurt by them. I wasn't, but they very well may have been taking business from my DZ through fraud. But maybe they were giving more business to my DZ. Can't sue for that. And hell, if another dropzone hired the law firm my brother works for, they'd probably sue my dropzone for benefiting from the fraud.

Dave

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The problem with suing them is that you have to have been directly hurt by them.

Yep.

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But maybe they were giving more business to my DZ. Can't sue for that.

Yep. Heck I can pay my rent and afford a little Top Ramen because of some of the buisness they've thrown my way (indirectly).

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I'd like to see a group of DZs file a class action lawsuit or whatever the best way to do it would be.

On what grounds? That's my biggest beef. This whole battle agains skyride seems to have no real grounds, it just smells of a witch hunt. Those hurt by them have legal recourse, but there are alot of people screaming "bloody murder:, and talking about crank calls, fradulent bookings, and website/listing tampering. What good does it do to stoop to the level you accuse someone of?

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Skydivers don't sue skydivers, right?.

Yep. I wouldn't sue a skydiver for the outcome of a skydive, or for something I had signed a waver of my rights to sue about.

I would sue if someone had wrongfully stolen something I had protective interests in. BIG difference in my book.

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On what grounds?

Fraud. I'm not a lawyer. I don't KNOW that fraud could be proven. But in my mind, what they are doing is clearly fraud in the moral sense. They are lying. Clearly. Now maybe it's a criminal offense. In that case, forget a lawsuit. A DA should prosecute them in criminal court. Nobody needs to prove they were hurt (as far as I know).

Ok why haven't any lawyers chimed in on this thread yet??

Dave

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Now you have me all confused. Is your dropzone related to Skyride too? You seem to have the same logo as ASC. And I'm talking about "Adventure Skydiving Connecticut," a fictional skyride-related DZ:

They stole our website.

The copied cut and pasted the whole friggin' thing.

They violated copyright laws yadda yadda yadda.

WE ARE NOT AFFILIATED WITH THEM. They are theives who stole our site outright. They are using the logo we designed without our permission.

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Too mush of the crap being spouted about Skyride seems to stem from a jealosy that it's successful.

I spend money, time and effort promoting Adventure Skydiving on campus' and radio stations in North Dakota and then they find http://www.northdakotaskydiving.com/ on the net!?!

oh yeah, I must be jealous of the hard work they put into copying my website and logo and putting down THEIR number.

It's the ethics that has us bent, not how much they make of it. And for me it's the outright theft that pisses me off and effects me finacially!

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On what grounds? That's my biggest beef. This whole battle agains skyride seems to have no real grounds, it just smells of a witch hunt.

.... how many times can I post the same thing over and over and over.

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They are theives who stole our site outright.

That's bad. Have you taken legal action?

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They are theives who stole our site outright.

That's bad. Have you taken legal action?

Hi JP

You keep on asking "Have you taken Legal action" .

So lets cut to the chase, Yes you know skyride is doing the nasty, and your willing to continue to personally benifit from their actions.

R.I.P.

I called them to see if they claimed Skydive Greene County(Xenia, Ohio), AerOhio (near Akron), or Skydive Wayne County (Richmond, IN) as one of their locations. They only claimed Richmond to be on their participating list. I informed them that SWC stopped accepting their certificates a couple months ago (straight from Jamie).

They are guilty of not being up to date on participating centers, but I really expected them to say that the others were included when I knew it was not true.

At the end of the call the guy kept asking me if I wanted a brochure. Even after I finally admitted that I was calling just to "see how much of a parasite on the skydiving industry they were". I thought he would hang up on me for being so rude/blunt saying that I "just wanted to waste his time" I guess he probably gets paid by the number of brochures he sends out.

when this company sells vouchers to their customers do they go over all the things like asking about age, and heart or back problems?
you would think if they did not and they sold them to any old person that they would be somewhat liable for selling a tandem skydive to someone who a dropzone would not accept. This would be some sort of intent to harm?
So what i am trying to say is that the dropzone can not sell skydives to a customer that will be at risk,
so if skyride sold a skydive voucher( same as selling a skydive) to a person that is not medicaly able to jump....could you not have them closed down for some sort of malfunction or endangering people or some sort of intent?
this should be researched, because this would be irresponsible of any bussiness to sell this product to someone that is not fit to jump.