virgin-burner 1 #51 February 12, 2008 you gotta realise mate, people here are dickheads. tough being asstrumpets, no-ones wishes you ill. but they question your choices. for your own safety. i think, i'm already overloaded on my wing. i had one bad landing, didnt break anything, got up packed, talked to my instructors, and did another jump. after that, i packed again and got me a beer and missed out on the following loads.. it was early afternoon. could have had a different outcome..“Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daytripper419 0 #52 February 12, 2008 I am completely into being safe and have the upmost respect for people trying to help others be safe as well. I also have respect for the others that have died in this sport so I can learn what not to do. I don't push my boundaries at all or the suggested boundaries set by much more experienced pilots. What I meant by that post with minimal expression is that seek advice and stay within your own boundaries. People know themselves better than anyone. I am confident in flying a slightly higher windloading than some suggest. And this has been suggested a accepatable wingloading by people I jump with as they know my piloting skills and the conditions at our dz. But like I said be safe and don't do dumb things. Such as go past your abilities which some do and get hurt. Sometimes giving robot like advice to thrill seekers doesn't jive. It didn't for me at all. So maybe talking to people like a real person would help and that is exactly what just happened. Wow doesn't that feel good to be a human being. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #53 February 12, 2008 ...thats really cool...real immature and childish Quote No more so than disregarding sage advice. ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #54 February 12, 2008 QuoteMy buddies bounce thread: /cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=833952#833952 You've got the same loading as he did on his Sabre 2. He broke his tibia, fibula and femur. He was super current and doing a canopy control course when he broke himself. Hope you're luckier than he was. Well if you read the post...he was taking a SWOOPING class.he started a 90 degree front riser turn way too low...And he broke himself while swooping..i wont be doing anything of that sort for a long long long time...swoooping and coming in for a straight landing nice and slow are 2 different things...thanks Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustChuteMeNow 0 #55 February 12, 2008 QuoteAlso want to add that betting on people bouncing is the most sick SHIT I have ever heard. KARMA!! Well I have heard of sicker shit. However, before I place my bet I was hoping you could give me some more information. Since you are jumping in North Dakota, could you let me know how long the season runs. Also how many months have you not jumped now regarding currency on your 1.5 wingloading canopy. I know your skills are high but just how high are they. On a scale of 1 - 10 with 1 being a world class canopy pilot and 10 being a swooper with little or no experience where would you place yourself on this spectrum. TIA for your answers.Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #56 February 12, 2008 QuoteQuoteAlso want to add that betting on people bouncing is the most sick SHIT I have ever heard. KARMA!! Well I have heard of sicker shit. However, before I place my bet I was hoping you could give me some more information. Since you are jumping in North Dakota, could you let me know how long the season runs. Also how many months have you not jumped now regarding currency on your 1.5 wingloading canopy. I know your skills are high but just how high are they. On a scale of 1 - 10 with 1 being a world class canopy pilot and 10 being a swooper with little or no experience where would you place yourself on this spectrum. TIA for your answers. havent you read the rules...fill out you profile so we know how many jumps you have ;) joking Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #57 February 12, 2008 Also how many months have you not jumped now regarding currency on your 1.5 wingloading canopy. I know your skills are high but just how high are they. Quote Averaging Just curious... ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bolas 5 #58 February 12, 2008 Quote Quote My buddies bounce thread: /cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=833952#833952 You've got the same loading as he did on his Sabre 2. He broke his tibia, fibula and femur. He was super current and doing a canopy control course when he broke himself. Hope you're luckier than he was. Well if you read the post...he was taking a SWOOPING class.he started a 90 degree front riser turn way too low...And he broke himself while swooping..i wont be doing anything of that sort for a long long long time...swoooping and coming in for a straight landing nice and slow are 2 different things...thanks Exactly. He was doing something different so that means it's completely inapplicable. There's no similarity in the attitudes or the cockiness either. Stupidity if left untreated is self-correcting If ya can't be good, look good, if that fails, make 'em laugh. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #59 February 12, 2008 so what your saying is that if im coming if for a straight landing not trying anything but just going for a normal landing.....and a jumper with 300 jumps tries to swoop for the first few times with a smaller canopy then the one i have....that we both have the same chance to get hurt...how the hell can i hurt myself as bad as he does if i am doing a much much safer basic landing technique>? thats just insane what you are stating Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustChuteMeNow 0 #60 February 12, 2008 Quote havent you read the rules...fill out you profile so we know how many jumps you have ;) joking I have a number of jumps listed in my profile.Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JustChuteMeNow 0 #61 February 12, 2008 QuoteAveraging < 4 jumps a month for time in sport, how does that equate to a high skill level? Just curious... OK you got me on that one. I should have stated my sentence differently and said, I know that you think your skills are high......... Thanks for keeping me honest.Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
airtwardo 7 #62 February 12, 2008 ...how the hell can i hurt myself as bad as he does. Quote Said with a straight face? ~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skybytch 259 #63 February 12, 2008 Quotehow the hell can i hurt myself as bad as he does if i am doing a much much safer basic landing technique>? He's not insane. Overconfidence can and does kill. Question for you. If all you've done to speed up the canopy you are/were flying is 90 degree front riser turns to base (I hope you aren't turning 90 degrees to final at 500 feet...), why waste the money on a smaller canopy? There is still SO much you could have learned on what you had - and you would have had the advantage of a few more square feet over your head so when you do make a mistake (and you will), you'd have been more likely to walk away from it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,822 #64 February 12, 2008 > I am confident in flying a slightly higher windloading than some suggest. I am sure you are. My point is that EVERYONE WHO HAS DIED UNDER A HIGHLY LOADED CANOPY THOUGHT THE SAME THING. >And this has been suggested a accepatable wingloading by people >I jump with as they know my piloting skills and the conditions at our dz. Yep. That happens in cycles at most DZ's. People push the limits. Once a few people push the limits, everyone does. "If Luigi can jump that 58 square foot canopy, I am certainly safe jumping a 99 square foot canopy! Only a hypocrite would suggest anything else. Besides, I know myself, and I will be careful." Then someone goes in under a 108 sq ft canopy and everyone gets more conservative. Did flying small canopies suddenly get less safe? Nope, the odds are the same as always. But the PERCEPTION changed, and that means everything. At your drop zone, there is apparently a perception that your wingloading is acceptable. That does not mean it is a safe wingloading, just that everyone in your group has talked themselves into it being OK. >But like I said be safe and don't do dumb things. "Doing dumb things" can involve doing things like dodging a collision at 100 feet. At low experience/high loadings, honestly the safest thing to do 90% of the time is to collide with the other jumper and ride it out. But most people aren't willing to do that, and so they do the dumb thing and make an unsurvivable turn. That's one of the many things killing people. >Sometimes giving robot like advice to thrill seekers doesn't jive. It >didn't for me at all. So maybe talking to people like a real person >would help and that is exactly what just happened. Wow doesn't that >feel good to be a human being. I am sure it does feel good. But if you're in the sport long enough, you will, one day, find yourself kneeling next to a friend of yours. A friend of yours who you talked to like a real person, and didn't give robot like advice to. A friend of yours who thought he was an above average canopy pilot. A friend who you always supported because he believed in his own skills. And then you will watch him die right there in front of you. And that feels bad, trust me. To avoid that feeling in the future, you might be willing to criticize people a little more. You might accept being called a "robot" or a "nazi" when you tell people things they don't want to hear. You might start being more adamant about following those boring, inflexible recommendations. Because even though it's a downer to tell people stuff they don't want to hear, it is a much bigger downer to go home, wash their blood off your jumpsuit and delete their number from your cellphone before you call their friends to tell them who just died. Or you might not be willing to do that. I guess time will tell. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #65 February 12, 2008 QuoteWell if you read the post...he was taking a SWOOPING class. You want to try and tell me what my friend was doing when he broke himself?? How 'bout you read HIS post not just the first one in the thread? He wasn't taking a swooping course. The info in the first post (as you often find in the incident's forum) is wrong. He was taking a canopy control course, designed to improve all-round canopy and landing skills - to make him a safer skydiver under canopy. He broke his legs when he made a 90deg front riser turn - not a swoop. Forgive me if I quote you again but: Quote...i was doing some very small 90 degree front riser turns Funny that - you're telling us that you do exactly what my friend was doing when he broke both his legs. I know you say you do your turns nice and high but funnily enough, my friend thought he was plenty high enough when he made his turn! He was supposed to be coming in nice and safe just like you intend to. He made a mistake - just as you might one day. He made his mistake after 340 jumps, lots of coaching, plenty of currency, after just sitting through a canopy control course. He did this on the same make canopy as you jump, loading it at pretty much the same as you load yours. You want to pretend that it can't happen to you too then go ahead. You want to pretend that my friends accident doesn't sound exactly like a carbon copy of your present position then again – go ahead. Don't get pissed though if others want to argue over who gets your shoes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #66 February 12, 2008 Hey mr2mk1g This is what your friend worte in the thread about him.... Quote I'll solve your curiosities, I got out of hospital last night, an am now sat in the bombshelter watching everybody else jumpI was doing the canopy control course on saturday with Jim Slaton and Clint Clawson. On the first jump of the course due to a number of misjudgements I started a front riser 90 degree turn to low. Injuries sustained were a broken femur in my right leg, and broken tib/fib in my left ankle. All the breaks were clean and relativly easily repaired to the extent that i am know hobbling round on crutches. I've got about 340 jumps (approx 200 current canopy) and was jumping a Sabre2 135 loaded at just under 1.4:1 The lesson that i've learnt from this is that you can NEVER let up you guard. I have known and been totally conciouse of the fact that i fall dead bang in the middle of the high risk group (20yo, male, between 200-500 jumps, relativly aggressive canopy) and have always tried to make sure that the mistakes have been of a to high in altitude nature as opposed to a to low nature. I have no second thoughts about aborting a landing plan an landing off the grass if i haven't setup properly or the air is to crowded or anything else doesn't feel right. This was a case where my judgement was simply off and I am extreamly lucky that my injuries were no more severe. And others who were talking about your friend "When I arrived at the DZ on saturday, there were several fire trucks and an ambulance out by the swoop pond. I was told in Square1 that someone taking a swoop class had been injured. Does anyone know the details about this incident? " "Broken femur. Yeah, he was swooping. Don't know who, but it wasn't a local. Heard he was visiting from over seas" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markovwgti 0 #67 February 12, 2008 seems like he was swooping...sorry if im mistaken though...i just wont make any 90 degree front riser turns for a few hundred more jumps until i feel confident....im off to perris now..long day of traveling ahead of me...ill post again here in a few days or so Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Orange1 0 #68 February 12, 2008 Quote No one thinks they are going to be dumb. I know at least six dead people who did not get up that morning thinking "you know, I'm going to do some stupid shit today and die." They were all as confident as you are, and had as much disdain for all those "safety nazis" who were always blabbering on about safety nonsense. They're gone now; the canopy nazis are still here. They will be here after the next six go in. And they'll get the same amount of abuse they always do, those idiots that "go by a chart" instead of having self-confidence. But they will keep giving out their idiotic suggestions in the hopes that, next time around, only five will die. The post is almost right, Bill. Just that not all the safety nazis are still around because, as another poster pointed out, everyone makes mistakes. Also, the post with the chances of dirty jumpsuit/injury/death is not quite right. There is at least one fatality in the incident forum of a student dying under a very lightly loaded student canopy (IIRC, 0.6) because she turned too low on her first jump. (That was one of my "I never knew that could happen" moments in this sport.) Re bounce bingo, I don't offer an opinion. But I do know there have been a few threads in the incidents forum where people have found these "justifying" threads from the incident subject's past. They make for very sad reading.Skydiving: wasting fossil fuels just for fun. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
in2jumping 0 #69 February 12, 2008 QuoteWhat do you guys think about that? Why are you in such a hurry to down size? You have the rest of your life to down size to a smaller canopy. Remember it just takes one fsck up to ruin your day month, year, or skydiving career. Go look over the landing/low turn fatalities over the last 10 years (http://www.skydivingfatalities.info/) and remember that for probably everyone of those landing fatalities there where two or three more people that have mangled them selfs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lauraliscious 0 #70 February 12, 2008 Quote The post is almost right, Bill. Just that not all the safety nazis are still around because, as another poster pointed out, everyone makes mistakes. Or they get taken out by someone else's mistake. Enemiga Rodriguez, PMS #369, OrFun #25, Team Dirty Sanchez #116, Pelt Head #29, Muff #4091 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dunesurfer 0 #71 February 12, 2008 Quoteso what your saying is that if im coming if for a straight landing not trying anything but just going for a normal landing.....and a jumper with 300 jumps tries to swoop for the first few times with a smaller canopy then the one i have....that we both have the same chance to get hurt...how the hell can i hurt myself as bad as he does if i am doing a much much safer basic landing technique>? thats just insane what you are stating With a "straight in" approach, you'll probably be ok, but what happens when: You have to abort your approach You land out You encounter turbulence over the landing area You find the wind shifted and now are landing down or cross wind You just plain commit an error in judgment Your wing loading may influence whether you walk away from these occurrences, end up crippled, or dead. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #72 February 13, 2008 QuoteAlso want to add that betting on people bouncing is the most sick SHIT I have ever heard. KARMA!! Wait till you hear a couple people actually bounce. I bet it takes the top spot on the list of sickest shit you've ever heard. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
monkycndo 0 #73 February 13, 2008 Quote Quote Also want to add that betting on people bouncing is the most sick SHIT I have ever heard. KARMA!! Wait till you hear a couple people actually bounce. I bet it takes the top spot on the list of sickest shit you've ever heard. Blues, Dave I wish I didn't have the experience to back up Dave's point of view. Some kids get the point that they aren't unbreakable by seeing people betting on when, not if, they are going to bounce. Karma? Nope. It's just having seen it before and not wanting to see it again.50 donations so far. Give it a try. You know you want to spank it Jump an Infinity Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #74 February 13, 2008 Quoteso what your saying is that if im coming if for a straight landing not trying anything but just going for a normal landing.....and a jumper with 300 jumps tries to swoop for the first few times with a smaller canopy then the one i have....that we both have the same chance to get hurt...how the hell can i hurt myself as bad as he does if i am doing a much much safer basic landing technique>? What if the guy with 300 jumps trying to swoop the first few times with a smaller canopy than the one you have cuts you off at 50 feet? Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,822 #75 February 13, 2008 >how the hell can i hurt myself as bad as he does if i am doing >much much safer basic landing technique? Because if you are "being really safe" and "landing straight in all the time" etc etc then he will have survival skills that you don't. The most dangerous people out there are the people who downsize until they are scared, and then decide to "be safe" by always landing straight in without deviating one jot from their course, and without trying anything new. When they get cut off, they have no skills to fall back on to save them. When the five year old runs in front of them on landing, they cannot avoid him. The guy who has been through a canopy control class, who has practiced flat turns and flare turns, who has jumped a canopy big enough to allow him to make mistakes (and has made them and learned from them) is going to be safer than you overall. Fast forward a few weeks. That guy and you are both on final. Two canopies appear right in front of you at 25 feet, and you both have to dodge them. Who is going to be able to do a better job of that? The guy who has practiced turning and recovering at that altitude, or the guy who has never even touched those toggles below 100 feet because he was "being safe?" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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