USPA election candidate opinions

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Don --

I'll admit you've got some right thinking when it comes to the GM program and USPA VCIPs.
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LOL, Mr Quade, I don't know what VCIPs are.Hey I never said I was bright!
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That said, no matter how intelligent you may be, no matter how good your ideas are, no matter if you claim to represent the little guy or not, no matter how selfless you'll work -- nobody gets voted into office if they are perceived by the -majority- of the people as a trouble-maker and malcontent.
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Sounds to me like it will be the Memberships loss!
I'll continue to fun jump!

Interesting to me is your label "trouble-maker".

The Truth is Mr. Quade , I'm in no position to "make trouble", I am only able to expose the trouble made by others.
A major difference!

"Treetop"

Oh! PS! I'm with you Paul, I have no doubt that USPA will never allow me to serve as a BOD member... No matter how many rules they have to break.

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Well don't vote for me than Michelle LOL!

Please pay attention to details, dearest Treetop....deatils are very important, especially if you're intending to represent someone...

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Did you really believe that we should hold a discussion group meeting to figure that one out?

Nope. I have been able to make my own decisions for years...

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It should be pretty simple! Even for chicks.LOFL!

Stop laying on the floor laughing, darling Don...your mysogyny shows when you do that..... What is the true pity, I think, is the fact that you've missed a good opportunity to make your position more clear. But perhaps you did just that...as I am a fun jumper, and you seek to represent me, and this is the "well-reasoned response" you provide on a public forum. Further reading on this thread shows that you ignore someone who has asked clear questions (Indyz), and you don't answer publicly so we all can learn, but instead give a phone number. One can't help but realize that you truly don't want to represent the fun jumpers...

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Fair Winds and Unlimited Ceilings Michelle,
for you and yours,

Returned 10 fold to you and yours, Donn...

Ciels-
Michele

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>If so you have acces to my candidates statement even if it was
> edited at least 27 times against the rules of Our Governance
> Manual, but that's a whole 'nuther topic.

In what ways was it edited? Did they change one of your all-caps paragraphs to properly capitalized text, or did they change the meaning of what you wrote?
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Mr. Von, Why does it matter how my Statement was edited?
The rules are unambiguous and state that the candidates statements will be presented "exactly as submited".

Exactly as submited , Mr Von!

Those are the rules!
If you realize that my statement was not presented to the Membership "exactly as submitted" you should be bouncing of the friggin' walls and askin' why was "Treetops" fuckin' statement edited?

Why ? Why was "Trees" statement edited and who is responsible?

Who allowed this violation of Our election rules?

Not "well how was it edited?"

Unless I woke up in Russia today.

"Treetop"

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LOL, Mr Quade, I don't know what VCIPs are.Hey I never said I was bright!

I'm surprised at you, you normally do a little bit better research!

Voluntary Courtesy Inspection Program. Ask some folks at the USPA about it and then ask how many DZs have ever had one.

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I do know a bit about the Voluntary Courtesy Inspection Program Mr . Quade!
I just wasn't used to that acronym (VCIP).
SO maybe I'm a dumb ass! Got any new news? LOFL!

Fair Winds and Unlimited Ceilings,
"Treetop"

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Well don't vote for me than Michelle LOL!

Please pay attention to details, dearest Treetop....deatils are very important, especially if you're intending to represent someone...

[Stop laying on the floor laughing, darling Don...your mysogyny shows when you do that..... What is the true pity, I think, is the fact that you've missed a good opportunity to make your position more clear.
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Your so full of shit Michelle!

You had previously stated that you didn't trust me.
Why would that sentiment change? I ain't talked all that fast!
Don't vote for me ! I couldn't care less!!
The misogynist thing is a nice touch! I love all women. Yes even you! something for you to dream about!

Fair Winds and Unlimited Ceilings Michelle,
for you and yours,
"Treetop"

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Depends on who you want on the board. You say in that post that you enjoy offending people and making things up, and some people may see that as a negative. That's why I posted the link, so people can decide for themselves.

Why do you think Treetop's offensive behavior is negative, while Winsor's hideous political incorrectness is ok?

Treetop, would you mind having a proper haircut and give up these fancy sun glasses? Not that i'm suggesting you're gay or something, but it would give a much less negative image.

bb

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Do you have any evidence that a lack of such enforcement has resulted in a greater number of injuries or deaths? If not, what, in real terms, will such a program accomplish?

Another long post from me. Sorry...

I can suggest some anecdotal evidence based on backwater DZ's, but I doubt it will be enough to convince many people.

There is a DZ north of us that was kicked out of the group member program for using unrated instructors (completely untrained), among other things. That was nuts, and the FAA inspector out of Albany pointed to that revocation action with pride, clearly drawing a line between our DZ and that one simply because we are part of USPA, and that DZ can't qualify.

There are other DZ's that are part of the group program and feel pressured into using AAD's because they are mandatory under the BSR's. I think there are a few other elements that have become standards, and without them most of us agree there would be more injuries and fatalities. I can't say a non-USPA DZ is necessarily unsafe, heck Mike Mullins runs two solid programs outside of USPA, so there is a good argument that it is possible to exist without group membership.

While I strongly believe in the safety of our program, the real benefit of group member affiliation, and an established national standard, is that it keeps the regulators away.

When New York State eliminated regulation as long as 15 years ago they specifically said that it was because USPA was supporting their own standard, and the state felt it was reasonable to get out of the business. I was part of that deregulatiion effort and wasamazed at the power of the USPA program to persuade.

When I spoke with the Division of Aeronautics in New Jersey earlier this year I was told that they don't regulate skydiving very heavily because USPA does it. In fact, N.J. has an extensive and bazaar old regulation on the books that isn't enforced because the state officials think USPA has it pretty much under control. Surprisingly, they knew more about USPA programs than they did about their own old regulation.

My own state of Connecticut requires a simple annual registration. There were two fatalities at one of our DZ's this year (hook turn, AFF instructor chasing student). When I talked with the with inspectors they pointed to USPA, and were comfortable that the DZ is safe and not in need of further oversight. The media screams about the danger were loud and pointed, but we ducked the pressure and avoided new regulation.

Over in Nevada a regulation was passed in 1999 that requires compliance with BSR's. It stops short of mandating membership, but the folks I spoke with at the Department of Transportation were pretty clear that they look to USPA to maintain order.

There was a huge case in California a few years ago when a tandem student went in, and drugs were considered a possible cause. Our programs came under heavy attack as the parents demanded stronger regulation at the state and federal levels. Ultimately, USPA standards were deemed adequate and we avoided additional regulation.

I called more than a dozen state level aeronautical agencies over the summer while researching a book. I was struck by their confidence level in USPA, and their consistent assumption that USPA certified drop zones follow established rules. That may be a false assumption on their part, but it does keep them at bay, and that's good for the rest of us.

The Group Member program is voluntary. No drop zone is required to join, but the best estimates I have put affiliated member DZ's at 80 percent. That's a pretty high level of commitment, and it is easy for government to point to that program as providing the needed safety standard.

Likewise we should look at how the media views us. They too look to the USPA standard and assume a high level of safety. Imagine if reporters did their stand-ups saying "the sport is unregulated. Anybody can open a school and train students without following any rules." We'd be in dutch real deep. Well, we all know that in reality anybody can open a dz and train students with out following any rules, but when we talk to the media, or our state/federal regulators, we point to USPA programs, and a basic system of drop zone and instructor certification. The system is pretty simple, but it works.

I wasn't sold on the benefits of group membership until I did my research for a book called "JUMP! Make Your First Skydive Fun and Easy." Writing the book forced me to look at skydiving instruction from a whuffo and regulatory perspective.

Our government believes they have a mandate to protect the general public. We can argue the value of that and scream that we don't need protection, but the reality of life in America is that our government feels the need to protect us with regulations. Heck, taxi drivers, hair stylists hot dog vendors, trash collectors, and just about every other business is regulated by the government at some level, in some form. Skydiving (Instruction in particular) has escaped regulation simply because we do it effectively ourselves.

The group member program isn't great, and it may or may not drive members to be safe, but it absolutely keeps the government off our backs, and that makes it a good program for every skydiver.

Thanks to you and all for your opinions. The low voter turn out might be only because most of us have never met or read much about the candidates. I appreciate a forum where people are willing to share their first hand knowledge of the candidates' positions on matters of great importance to us jumpers. I have to add I'm a little disappointed that those who claim to speak out for the fun jumpers, of which I am one, are the least diplomatic and most rebellious. They make very good points, but their manner of expression is so confrontational that I'm afraid they would be a most divisive element in our organization. Gentlemen, please leave the smear campaigns to the professional politicians.

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Yes you can see the unedited edition! I have no doubt that after this weekends Executive Comittee meeting my "original" statement will be available for all to peruse on Our website.

Hmmm. Wonder what's going to happen during said meeting to cause this?

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Your so full of shit Michelle!

Personal attacks are not allowed or appreciated here. Please refer to the Forum Rules and abide by them. Thank you.

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Oh I know very well what he means, I just don't buy it. After years of witnessing his arrogance and abrasive attitude, I don't buy this "I'll fall on the grenade for all the oppressed fun jumpers" routine. I'm sure there will be some who'll gobble it up though.

I suggest that you take some time and call him on the phone. Maybe even go jump with him a bit. Don's on line bark is a lot worse than his in person Bite. We could do a lot worse than Don on the BOD.
He knows the manual better than 90% of the board. And attempts to make them follow it, if than makes him a trouble maker, then that's what we need

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The Dropzone.com Forums was created exactly because people like Don turned the other place where I used to enjoy hanging out into an unfriendly and patronizing environment.

Never seemed like a unfriendly place to me. Perhaps a few times it might have got a little out of hand but get some self esteem people.

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Don suddenly shows up here and tells us how he's going to "give his all" for us. I'm slightly skeptical to say the least. You buy it if you want to.

He's here to talk to the skydivers about the uspa. I believe some people here was asking about the candidates. He's providing it and some entertainment along the way.

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come on Sangiro, you and I know what he means.

Actually, Sangiro does know what Don is talking about. Well...as far as we can. Did you bother to read post 7 by BillVon. See the link on his "disclaimer".

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"As I have posted before I enjoy being antagonistic or argumentative solely for the purpose of arguing. The intended purpose of my postings are for my own entertainment .They are not meant to be informative or enlightening. They may not even be factual. They may not reflect my own true inion.They should be considered for entertainment only. I would hope in the future you will disregard anything I may post in your consideration of any subject, especially* when forming opinions of others."

"I enjoy being antagonistic or argumentative solely for the purpose of arguing"

"They may not reflect my own true opinion"

Ok. This is the whole point. If -1- someone posts for the purpose of being disagreeable and -2- they do not post their true opinions, then you cannot possibly know their true opinions from their posts. This whole BOD thing is just grandstanding for attention.

Until Don repudiates his "disclaimer", then he has posted his intent, in advance, to be a disagreeable troll. The first step in having your opinions seriously considered is to stand behind them. "Just kidding" isn't what I want for a serious responsibility like this.

"Why do you think Treetop's offensive behavior is negative, while Winsor's hideous political incorrectness is ok? "

Uh, gee...I've always thought offensive behavior is negative. Remind me when it wasn't...

Bill

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"Why do you think Treetop's offensive behavior is negative, while Winsor's hideous political incorrectness is ok? "

Uh, gee...I've always thought offensive behavior is negative. Remind me when it wasn't...

I'll do as soon as i'll know why Winsor's offensive behavior is not negative.

You guys are all going about this the wrong way. If you want my vote, gimme free ice cream. I swear, that'll work. Also promise better stickers with our USPA renewal. As far as the real issues go, well, I think everyone's about the same. Sure, go ahead and try for that 180 repack cycle and other stuff like that. But for the most part, as long as the USPA exists and has fairly competent people in charge, I don't think it really matters who is on the BOD. I just care about how I'm directly affected. I WANT MY ICE CREAM!

Dave
No, I'm only half serious.

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It should be pretty simple! Even for chicks.LOFL!

"Treetop"

Excuse me? Are you trying to pick a fight with the girls? What exactly are you implying here?


Judy
If you're up here, who's running hell?

Be kinder than necessary because everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle.

Not replying to any one particular post here, but I will throw in my two cents on several things I read:

-Mid Atlantic region candidate Tony Thacker. Livendive rated him a "2" on his scale, but I do not think they have ever met. Anyway, since I have known him since I was 12 and have jumped with him since I started working in North Carolina in 1984, I figured I know him enough to give a good description. Tony is a second generation jumper/competitor/commercial jump pilot/instructor. He and his brothers were national competitors for many years and he was a member of the US style and accuracy team in the classic disciplines. He attended one of the very first AFF Instructor Certification Courses and was an active instrutor for many years, though he now leaves that to the rest of us on staff.
What some of you may not know, though, is that Tony was also a golf pro for a number of years and still likes to smack whitey on a regular basis. He likes to eat hot wings and Monkey Fries and is generally very social. Tony is totally approachable, and as a person who literally grew up on a dropzone, is very knowledgeable about all aspects of DZ operations, training, management, etc. He and his wife, Kate, run SkyKAT gear shop as well as the "sport" skydiving side of Raeford.
Tony fun jumps as much as possible and organizes big (for Raeford) formations on a regular basis. He and Kate are both on our new 8-way intermediate team which we are taking to the nationals next year, of which I am also a member. The bottom line here is that Tony is fully qualified to fill the position. I think there may be a write-in candidate also trying for the Mid-Atlantic position, but I feel Tony is best qualified to take the job.

-Now, concerning the Don Jardine for National Director issue: my feelings are totally mixed. I truly loathe the fact that he, among others, ruins the rec.skydiving experience for those seeking "real" information. I used to post there on occasion, trying to add a bit more "signal" to the excessive "noise," but was, in the end, so disappointed by the rampant thread hijackings that I now only logon to scan for news of meet results and injuries. This truly is the only sane place on the internet to get any great quantity of "real" skydiving information. That being said, as a moderator of this forum, I will not allow it to become a free-for-all in the rec.dot tradition.
I have absolutely no problem with Don and his supporters (if you will) posting here, so long as they understand that I won't tollerate a troll, regardless of "disclaimer." As someone who got suckered into one of Don's rec.dot ambushes some time ago which got elevated all the way to the Executive Director level, I can assure you that I am not impressed with that sort of nonsense. That being said, I am all about the "for the fun-jumper" stand he is taking, and am compelled to give him a vote just to put his feet to the fire and either put up or shut up. Personally, as a guy who has been skydiving just under 22 years, I doubt he could do much harm as a national director. I didn't see many other candidates I wanted to vote for anyway. If he does get elected, then he will be forced to "show what he is made of." In my line of work that's how it has always been, so while I am certainly not a Don fan, I would be non-plussed if he did in fact get elected. It might just do him some good. Call my thinking flawed if you like, but it's just my opinion.

Chuck Blue
D-12501

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Not replying to any one particular post here, but I will throw in my two cents on several things I read:

-Mid Atlantic region candidate Tony Thacker. Livendive rated him a "2" on his scale, but I do not think they have ever met.

You are correct. I rated him one notch below "no opinion", (i.e. "somewhat oppose") primarily because he has ignored me every time I've asked him a question. Additionally, I don't recall ever reading in any BOD meeting minutes where he's taken a stance against the Good Ol' Boys club and tried to do something that benefits jumpers more than DZO's.

I'm sure that knowing him personally makes your assessment of him more accurate than mine, however the "2" I gave him was not completely without reason.

Blues,
Dave

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Some good points:

>There is a DZ north of us that was kicked out of the group member program for using unrated instructors . . .

I agree that that's important, but that was accomplished _without_ any sort of inspection program.

>Likewise we should look at how the media views us.

I disagree here. Our best future will come if we stay _out_ of the media, if we're seen as incomprehensible but basically harmless lunatics...

Unsafe DZ's can be kicked out of the current GM program without inspections, and that's a good thing. In fact, it is a strong reason to keep the current GM program. I think we just need to be just a bit more assertive in that regard. The inspection program would be (is) a separate program that serves as a "top" rating for DZ's that want it as a competitive advantage.

We can't keep the media away. They are here. If we don't do something to regulate ourselves the media will scream WOLF and the government will be on us, just to get the media off their backs. We can probably deal with that on the Federal level, but the state level is way to complex and dynamic to keep tabs on. What we have now works, sort of. Let's hang onto it and not eliminate the GM program, the only standard we have.

I agree that we shouldn't be pitching the sport as "safe." We need to make it as safe as "reasonably" possible on the student side, but then be absolutely honest about the real risk. I'm not in favor of regulating to make the media happy, just to keep them away.

I also think students should be given some consumer level help as they try to select a good DZ. That's where an inspection program can come into play. DZ's that hold to a higher standard should be able to advertise that as long as it's true and verifiable at some level. That helps the good DZ's, helps the students, and hopefully puts some competitive pressure on the weaker DZ's to improve.

From the USPA website...today's date 11/18, time 11:07 am PST...
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Don L."Treetop" Jardine
Ellijay, Georgia
Age: 41.
First jump: 1987.
Total jumps: 2,300.
Jumps past year: 179.
Licenses and ratings: A-11067, D-13425, PRO.

"My fellow fun jumpers,

Over the course of the last few years, it has become increasingly obvious to me that what was once an association whose first priority was to keep skydivers skydiving has become one whose top goal is to ensure the profits of the skydiving businesses.

Often in recent years, the interests of the fun jumpers have taken a back seat to the interests of the GM DZOs and other profiteers.

I say it is time for a change.

I say it's time for the fun jumpers' voices to be heard.

I say it's time we gain equal representation on our board.

I say it's past time for the 180-day repack cycle, the elimination of the
Executive Committee and the Group Member Program in its present form.

I say it's time for open communications between the BOD and the membership.

I say it's time for HQ to make all USPA files and documents available to
your representatives.

I'll say it again, 'It's time for a change.'

It's time we take back our association, USPA.
Together, we can do it!
What are we waiting for?
Let's go!

Don L. 'Treetop' Jardine for National Director."
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What are the 27 changes? Please enlighten us, if you will...or if you can...

OH! And as for the full of shit comment, it may be that I am "full of shit" because I have made an honest attempt to swallow what you're feeding us...

Have a great day -
Michele