The death of Skydiving

I know that at Spaceland, we have an awesome crop of fairly recent jumpers (50-200 jumps) who are a joy to jump with.

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Yeah...and I hear there's some old farts that like to lay base for pretty women too!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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The solo students are not marketed a "one-off" experience. Why do so few of them return?

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Is it OUR fault or THEIR fault they don't stick around?

Maybe a little of both, but WE can do something about OUR part and make it a little more attractive to more of them.

Its their fault of course

Their not all sky babes

How many Nice lady's are posting on DZ.com with gender neutral screen names. If it works in cyber space it works on the DZ.

Light em if you got em

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ya think so?

seriously guys ... are we that quick to lump a whole generation as the entitlement generation? Sadly, that sounds more like people of my generation and my father's generation lumping people together based on color and ethnic origin. It all appears stupid to me.

Steveorino

I agree with Twardo

The kid in the sand pile in you pic is his fathers son

You did good

good luck to you and yours.

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I'm guessing that there are lots of people who jump with a club DZ wondering what this is all about..... "Bring back the static line?" It never left did it? "A dropzone was just a field with a C182" Yes, and a trailer set off to the side..... right?

Actually we had an old U-haul that probably hasn't moved since the 60's to store gear and a small trailer for the FJC. Damn, I miss home.

I think everyone's whining a lot about this. Times change. Our generation is different than the founders and our kids will be different than us. Big deal. Find a DZ you like or move on to said sports like scuba or drinking.

Hey thats not true! We moved that truck just a few years ago. We had to push it, but we moved it! We miss you dude, when are you gonna grace us with your presence again?

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You post as if I say that the other generation is THE problem. If that is what you think I am saying you are mistaken. Despite what you say gen "y"ers look at the world competly different than you and I do. Can't help it, It is a fact of being and it is not a good or bad thing. It simply is.

Every new generation gets this sort of knock made against it. Take the young workers in the 60s - far more interested in sex, pot, and being hippie protestors than contributing to American capitalism.

There could be some elements of truth to gen Y being latchkey kids coddled by their parents, but how different is that from X? Or any other stupid generalization.

Skydiving isn't dying, and yes, it's a recreational activity. In the future, perhaps fewer people will choose to do it.

But why did Sparky come back to repeat this thread? He went on to get involved in another fun recreation - customs bikes. Complaining about how spoiled and uncommitted people are now won't really solve any problem.

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But why did Sparky come back to repeat this thread? He went on to get involved in another fun recreation - customs bikes. Complaining about how spoiled and uncommitted people are now won't really solve any problem.

If ya know Sparky, then ya know where he likes to park when at the DZ. So after selling his rigs and building a bike to ride to the airport and cruse the beach for hot chicks, he pulled into the DZ only to have some walking pin cushin with blue hair in one of those FF clown suits and a few of his buddys, start smart'n off to Spark about being som ol geeezzzer needing a "special" (handicap) parking spot and being to lazy to walk across the dz, I'm sure he blew it off, at first.

He and bad spot Tim were gettin loaded and swooping all the hot chicks at the bar with all their "back in the day stories" and social security money (buying rounds), them "kids" got pissed off these two old fucks were drinking um under the table and making out with their chicks too, so they went out to the parking lot and kicked over his high dollar custom bike.......must have known they'd get their ass kicked, so took it out on the bike.

The guy don't even jump anymore and get's front row "special" parking and all the pussy too, still.

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If you think this present generation has a monopoly on an entitlement attitudes, you have obviously have a very narrow view. But that is just my opinion.

No, I am not saying that. Only that I think it is more prevalent. But that is just my opinion

Guys, this is not generational. And, I don't think that it has anything to do with entitlement. I think it has to do with segregation. I mean, the top level skydivers are not (often) investing in newer jumpers. When was the last time you got on a load with XXXXXX Skygod? Great, now did you pay...or at least pay for his slot to organize? THAT is our problem. When I was young, I was jumping with guys at National and World levels. And, I didn't pay for their jump, their organizing, their coaching. Hell, I rarely paid for video. That is just how we were connected. Now, everyone is on a 4 way Team and no time for anyone else. Now, everyone is in it for what they can take away from it.
Get your heads out of your asses. SKYDIVE and have fun. There are alot of young skydivers who really know what they are doing. There are alot of old guys who can keep up with turning points. But, more importantly, give back. When was the last time that you asked a 100 jump wonder if you could snivel ontop his load? ME...last weekend. And, I am better for it. Carol Clay used to say that there was nobody she wouldn't jump with. And, it is true...because I did a 20 way invitational with her and Sandy in VA in June of 1995. Who is Carol Clay? If you don't know you better brush up on your "who's who" in skydiving. If she can make time, so can you. Invest in jumpers now or regret having nobody to skydive with later.
Make the DZ the place to be. If it is raining, take a group of young jumpers into the hangar and show videos. If it is too windy, strap a student into the hanging harness for some training. If it s too dark, invite someone you don't know to your party. Sooner or later, the small isolated partes will merge and we will start to have one big party at the DZ's again. That is the brotherhood I remember.

BTW - "Thanks" to everyone I have jumped with over the years. I have learned from all of you, no matter your experience level. Now, let me on your load, dammit!

Bringing back static line is the best idea ... we'll see a wider variety of people learning to skydive.

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I disagree.
... but then I was a static-line jump-master before tandem was invented ...
Tandem has attracted far more students - from a wider range of backgrounds - than static-line ever did.
Fully 30 percent of my tandem students admit that they do not have the courage to jump on their own.
I agree, I would not allow 30 percent of them to jump on their own, because they are smart enough, flexible enough, strong enough, courageous enough, etc.
The good news is that all those tandems forced my boss to buy a big, comfortable, fast-climbing turbine-engined airplane that allows me to make a dozen jumps a day.
If we returned to the good-old-days of static-line, I would spend half the day in the class room (or until the slowest student "got it") and fly so many back-to-back loads (in a cramped Cessna) that I would not have time to jump myself.

I may have learned to skydive during the good-old-days (military-surplus round parachutes, static-lines, beat up old Cessnas, leaky radial engines, etc.) but am glad they are behind us.

I like this response, it's the kind of attitude that we need.

As a student reading this thread I was feeling pushed away from this sport with each new post I read. Up until I read hukturn's replies, he made me feel welcome. I felt like I'll be categorized and looked bad upon just because I'm new and young. For me, when I'm in the air I'm having the best time of my life. While on the ground I spend most of the time with fellow students I do talk a little with the experienced jumpers. For me skydiving is about fun in the air and being around cool people on the ground. Is that bad? Will this mindset contribute to the "death" of skydiving?

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I like this response, it's the kind of attitude that we need.

Too bad it is a delusional view of the past. At the 1990 Convention Jerry bird tickets were $2.00 and Tom Piras ones were $3.00 (in addition to your own lift ticket). i can't remember if video was also extra or not. You had to pay extra to jump with Guy Manos, Norm Kent didn't work for free, nor did most of the big names.
There was then and still is today leaders in our sport who enjoy jumping with juniors, but not everyone can afford to devote a lot of jumps to unpaid coaching; I saw Steve Curtis walk up to a guy on the tram in Eloy this winter and ask him if he minded jumping with him. That was really cool, but most days Steve has to earn a living.
I have never heard of Carol Clay but I am glad you had a good time jumping with her, but when you were a junior in the mid-nineties the scene was not significantly different than it is today.

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when you were a junior in the mid-nineties the scene was not significantly different than it is today.

Good to hear a voice of reason...

Not to throw stones at anyone, but take a look at people like Tonto and Ed (bodypilot). They both approach skydiving differently to most other instructors I've had to deal with.

They both really seem to care about what their students do. They still seem to care about their students even when they're off student status and no longer worth any money to them.

I've been to at least one place where not only did I not feel looked after, I felt lied to and robbed. That didn't really encourage me to stay in the sport.

I've been to a couple of places where if I'm not there every single weekend come rain or sunshine, I'm not going to get any instructor time. Not even to sign off my packing license, not even now that I've got the job down to 30 minutes and done the last 20 packjobs by myself. That brick wall of progression doesn't encourage me to stay.

And yet I can still drop Ed a line asking inane rubbish, and somehow he finds the time to at least point me in the right direction. This is well after a year after I stopped being worth money to him!

You've probably got your own Ed or Tonto, but I'm sure everyone here knows an instructor or a DZO who is the Anti-Ed, the Anti-Tonto... That guy who treats the students like nothing more than a cash cow at best or an inconvenience at worst.

How many times has someone on here been told that if they don't grow a thicker skin, they have no future in skydiving ? So now we don't just want to restrict ourselves to the people who are prepared to jump out of planes (always a limited portion of the population), we want to further whittle that away by restricting it to people who'll take abuse or accept being dealt with without tact? Genius!

I love the sport too much to walk away, but I can see why people go. I can see why another weekend at the DZ with no-one to speak to if you're shy can push you out. I can see how an entire weekend of people walking past and staring at you but not saying a word or introducing themselves could be awkward. If you can stare at my wife's chest all weekend, surely it wouldn't kill you to say Hi and introduce yourself? Oh, I forgot - she's a whuffo so she's not worth anything.

I really understand why people walk away. But I've seen how easy it is to keep them too and it's really not that hard.

I really understand why people walk away. But I've seen how easy it is to keep them too and it's really not that hard.

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Truer words were never spoken...great post!

~ If you choke a Smurf, what color does it turn? ~

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He and bad spot Tim were gettin loaded and swooping all the hot chicks at the bar with all their "back in the day stories" and social security money (buying rounds), them "kids" got pissed off these two old fucks were drinking um under the table and making out with their chicks too, so they went out to the parking lot and kicked over his high dollar custom bike.......must have known they'd get their ass kicked, so took it out on the bike.

There are no words to describe the cowardice of fighting a man's bike rather than the man.

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I think it has to do with segregation. I mean, the top level skydivers are not (often) investing in newer jumpers. When was the last time you got on a load with XXXXXX Skygod?

this is the key issue. Dropzones that focus on the business, the tandems and the teams training have lost the 'culture'.

How many skydivers are still friends with the people who taught them to jump? how many still jump with them when they are at the DZ? how many still talk to them even though they now live 100's of miles away?

How many skydivers trained in the last 2 years can say the same?
I'll wager most of those who can are based at DZ's that promote the culture and the atmosphere more than the business.

Dropzones create their own culture and environment. If you are at the kind of dropzone when people jump and then vanish when the planes stop, you will never get to know the 'other side' as you have no social interaction and they have no incentive to include you, or even learn your name...

ive noticed that slide in attitude from the DZ being 'Home" to the DZ being "business aka work" even in my short time around the sport. It means you have little to no opportunities for the new 'students' to get to know the 'old hands' unless they already have an 'outside in'.

and you wonder why there is a disconnect with attitude and interaction?

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“They both really seem to care about what their students do. They still seem to care about their students even when they're off student status and no longer worth any money to them.
I've been to at least one place where not only did I not feel looked after, I felt lied to and robbed. That didn't really encourage me to stay in the sport.”

No matter where you go or what it is you are learning, you will find quality teachers and those that are either incapable of quality instruction or just there for a paycheck.

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“I've been to a couple of places where if I'm not there every single weekend come rain or sunshine, I'm not going to get any instructor time. Not even to sign off my packing license, not even now that I've got the job down to 30 minutes and done the last 20 packjobs by myself. That brick wall of progression doesn't encourage me to stay. ”

I am giving you a formal invitation to Texas, you can even say in a camper I am not using for a couple months until you get on your feet – you will not get such inhospitable treatment here.

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“I love the sport too much to walk away, but I can see why people go. I can see why another weekend at the DZ with no-one to speak to if you're shy can push you out. I can see how an entire weekend of people walking past and staring at you but not saying a word or introducing themselves could be awkward. If you can stare at my wife's chest all weekend, surely it wouldn't kill you to say Hi and introduce yourself? Oh, I forgot - she's a whuffo so she's not worth anything. ”

Believe it or not, everyone at a DZ that does not roll out the red carpet is looking down their nose at visitors, newcomers and wuffos because there are skydivers who are shy as hell as well. I will admit something I never have in public, but I personally have a terrible time talking to strangers, or even taking my garbage to the dumpster in the daytime because I may have to talk to a neighbor. For some reason, going up to a stranger and starting a conversation is one of the most impossible things in the world for me, it is not because of a skygod attitude but because I have personal issues when it comes to socializing and I suspect that I am not the only one. I happen to be one of those instructors that go the extra mile and really care about the quality of education the students I work with receive, but if it were not for manifest calling me in and assigning me to a student, I may never meet them because of my antisocial (shy) behavior.

So perhaps a less contemptuous attitude may be in order to the entire skydiving community. We are not all assholes; some of us just have issues like regular people because we are just regular people, an entire society where you are going to find varying personalities.

When I first started skydiving, I was as I always am, very isolated, but my love for the sport outweighed anything and I will never accept an excuse that someone quit skydiving for any reason other than they did not want it badly enough…

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I will admit something I never have in public, but I personally have a terrible time talking to strangers, or even taking my garbage to the dumpster in the daytime because I may have to talk to a neighbor. For some reason, going up to a stranger and starting a conversation is one of the most impossible things in the world for me, it is not because of a skygod attitude but because I have personal issues when it comes to socializing and I suspect that I am not the only one.

You aren't the only one.

In the past, it was so bad for me that I would break a sweat paying for gas. I felt as if no matter where I was that everyone was watching me. Even those indoors when I was standing outside.

I have always envied those kinds of people that are able to walk up to just anyone, start a conversation, smile and get others excited. I would love to be that outgoing.

On the plane ride to altitude I always feel somewhat left out when everyone is yelling and having a good time. I'm usually the quite one that sits there waiting for the door to open and doesn't say much. I've gotten a lot better since my first jump, because I've gotten used to everyone and feel more like I'm part of the whole drop zone family, but I guess I'll always have those issues to an extent.

It was much much worse in the past and I attribute that mainly to the way I was treated by so many people I've met in my life that I just learned to shut the hell up to avoid being ridiculed.

This sport actually helps people be more outgoing. I know it's helped me.

If you feel like such an outcast at your drop zone. You're at the wrong drop zone. You probably can't help that because it's not like there are that many choices in driving distance for many of us, but NOT EVERY drop zone is like that. I've been lucky enough to make all my jumps at an excellent drop zone. Everyone is treated with respect, if you have questions they will get answered by pretty much anyone you ask and people speak to you no matter who you are.

I just hung around the guys in my first jump class all the time. We all became friends and kept tabs on how each other was doing. All but one of the four of us that were in that FJC got licensed and still jump after about 10 months.

What you probably want to do is just engage in conversation with people that have something in common with you. The ones that started when you did, have about the same number of jumps, your instructors, the people at manifest, etc. From there you can meet plenty of other people.

Hell, next year make a trip to Skydive Carolina for the Rodriguez Brothers boogie. Get initiated. As shy as I am, I went through with it. There are some things in life that you are scared as hell of that you just have to do to if you want certain things. You were able to make that first jump and continue doing it. If you can do that, you can take being initiated. I'm the last person I thought would ever have the balls to do some of the things I've done in the last 10 months.

As far as those people that instruct for a paycheck. I've not met a single one yet that had that attitude.

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Hell, next year make a trip to Skydive Carolina for the Rodriguez Brothers boogie.

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I think that is a great idea. If you are discouraged by the attitudes you find at the dz you jump at travel. Pick some boogies you can make and go meet other jumpers in a relaxed/party atmosphere. You will be amazed at all the cool people in this sport. Just be ready for the drunk dials when they are at a boogie and your not

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I think it has to do with segregation. I mean, the top level skydivers are not (often) investing in newer jumpers. When was the last time you got on a load with XXXXXX Skygod?

this is the key issue. Dropzones that focus on the business, the tandems and the teams training have lost the 'culture'.

In no way am I attacking your statement, but I have to disagree. My home DZ has weekends where anywhere from 60 to 100 tandems can be booked with an 8 way, 4 way, and a couple free fly teams training. Even with this traffic, we still have a great culture with fun jumpers and strong interaction between visitors, students, AFFI’s and the regulars. I think you CAN have it all in a DZ, however, the staff has to work to cultivate that environment and the DZO has to work to balance all the different interests.

Oh my...you are right. What was I thinking. I am delisional in my representation of the nineties. I could not possibly remember the jumps, the people, the parties. And my logbooks don't have it all recorded, either. Man, I must have been tripping the whole time.

Really, I wasn't talking about the XXXXX Skygods like Piras, Bungee Wallace, Guy Manos, Mike Sandberg, Roger Ponce, et cetera. I was talking about you...believe it or not, you are a Skygod to someone. And, how you handle yourself will affect our sport.

But, what the heck do I know. Maybe you are right. Maybe all of those 4-weay teams stuck in the video booths are really sharing their talent with others. Maybe everyone leaving the 100 jump wonders to fend for themselves is better.

Sorry you don't know Carol. Helluva woman who has accomplished alot. I can't say that we are friends but I can say that she is not a jump snob. And, I can say the same about alot of other very accomplished skydivers. Maybe they just didn't invest in you because they did not see that you would pass the torch. I dunnno. But, I have enjoyed all of my experiences and I want to share. And I really believe this grows the brotherhood.

Sorry, but I am letting this one go. I am doing the right thing and I know it. It is what I was taught as a very young skydiver and I plan to continue it.

You are right Bill, of course you are. How myopic of me to disagree with you.

"You are right Bill, of course you are. How myopic of me to disagree with you. "



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