PhreeZone 15 #1 November 24, 2010 I got a copy of a letter that it seems all the US tandem gear manufacturers signed that outlines their position on under 18 tandems. Looking over the list of who this was sent to is interesting since it was directed at the FAA also. RE: Letter from the Tandem Parachute Manufacturers Attached please find a letter of declaration signed by Parachute Laboratories Inc., United Parachute Technologies and Strong Enterprises in order to make it crystal clear that these manufacturers of Tandem Parachutes, have jointly stated that their Tandem Parachutes Systems are not to be used to carry student/passengers under the age of majority, or 18 years old, whichever is higher. In order to prevent these manufacturers from being litigated out of business they need to have the support of USPA as pertains to the minimum age for Tandem student/passenger. These manufacturers are requesting that USPA regulations be changed to reflect their needs in this matter, and to eliminate confusion on the part of the Tandem Instructor as to what rules he must adhere to in order to avoid suspension or revocation. Please put this matter on the agenda for the next B.O.D meeting. Regards, Ted Strong D-16, President I can't seem to attach the letter but all three manufacturers - Jumpshack, Strong and UPT are stating that "Failure to observe this minimum age requirement is deemed by the Tandem Equipment Manufacturers to constitute misuse of the tandem parachute assembly product" List of people that were sent this letter includes the entire USPA BOD, FAA, Parachutist Magazine, Blue Skies Magazine, PIA, All Strong tandem instructors and all owners of the Dual Hawk tandem system.Yesterday is history And tomorrow is a mystery Parachutemanuals.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #2 November 24, 2010 I too got a copy of the letter from my RD and brought it up for discussion in an old thread in the Instructor Forum. Seems to me it is a done deal. Weather USPA adopts the BSR or not, the Manufacturers will enforce their age rules. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #3 November 24, 2010 Thats fucked up, but no real surprise! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #4 November 24, 2010 QuoteThats fucked up, but no real surprise! Why is that fucked up? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rover 11 #5 November 24, 2010 To bad if you want to jump in Mississippi. You'll have to wait til you're 21. What a fuck up. 2 wrongs don't make a right - but 3 lefts do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Hvance 0 #6 November 24, 2010 QuoteThats fucked up, but no real surprise! No it's not. Parents can't waive the rights of minors, so litigation is a very real threat. It would be disastrous for the sport on multiple levels.I wish Google Maps had an "Avoid Ghetto" routing option. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #7 November 24, 2010 To All: This isn't really "New". UPT has had this stance from the beginning and the two other Manufacturers fell the same way. USPA decided to say 16 and did not separate Tandems from AFF/SL/IAD. This put the Manufacturers, the ones who have to defend themselves in a law suit, in a tough spot; Sue the DZ's? Sue and or Revoke ALL the Ratings of Holders who jump at those DZ's? OR Ask USPA to honor the original letter of agreement and honor the Manufacturers Rules. This is not a fight at our level. It is a fight at State and National Levels to make one age the Age Of Legal Majority and to allow minors to be involved in high risk sports and the waivers to be honored.<-That wont happen until laws change. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #8 November 24, 2010 QuoteQuoteThats fucked up, but no real surprise! Why is that fucked up? Many Kids at age 12 are very capable, if they have skills, The wind tunnels should not be their only way to learn! My son has 27 minutes of tunnel time, I planned a roadd trip to Eloy soon for him to do a tandem...Hell, he is ready for AFF, he is an athlete, and is only being held back by age! THAT is Fucked Up! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #9 November 24, 2010 QuoteQuoteThats fucked up, but no real surprise! No it's not. Parents can't waive the rights of minors, so litigation is a very real threat. It would be disastrous for the sport on multiple levels. Changing the wrong regulations...Once a Parent signs a waiver, It should be Iron Clad...period! My kid can do this, http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/onekick/Redbull%20Rampage/094.jpg competing on a proffesional level at age 16 , against adults, but can;t get the thrill of skydiving??? Rediculous! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skyrider 0 #10 November 24, 2010 As usual , knee jerk regulations to protect the many , from the few! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
matthewcline 0 #11 November 24, 2010 I am on your side that Kids should be able to participate, but this is not knee jerk. These rules have been in place but not enforced for years. The Manufacturers, the ones defending them selves in court, are asking USPA to honor its original agreement. If not, Tandem will go away and the growth the sport has seen may very well go with it. MattAn Instructors first concern is student safety. So, start being safe, first!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildcard451 0 #12 November 24, 2010 QuoteAs usual , knee jerk regulations to protect the many , from the few! Unfortunately with the sue happy culture of the many in this country, the few must protect themselves from the many. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
riggerrob 615 #13 November 24, 2010 QuoteQuoteQuoteThats fucked up, but no real surprise! Why is that fucked up? Many Kids at age 12 are very capable, if they have skills, The wind tunnels should not be their only way to learn! My son has 27 minutes of tunnel time, I planned a road trip to Eloy soon for him to do a tandem...Hell, he is ready for AFF, he is an athlete, and is only being held back by age! THAT is Fucked Up! ....................................................................... I disagree! But I am also no lawyer. The legal precedent was set back in the late 1970s and early 1980s when static-line was the dominant method of instruction. Too many under-age students paniced or froze and were injured. Since parents were unwilling to admit that their "little Johnny" was not bright enough to survive the stress of a parachute jump, they tried to absolve their guilt by suing the DZ out of business. When they learned that most DZs are non-profit (yes, I know that sounds sarcastic), a few of them went after the (perceived) "big money" held by parachute manufacturers. Those legal precedents are why tandem manufacturers do not want to get dragged into lawsuits involving minors. I can learn from their expensive lessons by refusing to do tandem jumps with minors. Rob Warner Vector TI since 1986 Racer TI since 1996 Strong Tandem Examiner since 2008 more than 4,000 tandem jumps in total CSPA Instructor for S/L, IAD, PFF and FJC Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #14 November 24, 2010 You can thank the lawsuit happy American public for this. Of the people by the people!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,589 #15 November 24, 2010 Options: a) Persuade the legislative bodies in 50 states to all lower the legal contract age to 16. b) Don't take people skydiving if they are under legal contract age. Which one is feasible?"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CSpenceFLY 1 #16 November 25, 2010 QuoteYou can thank the lawsuit happy American public for this. Of the people by the people!!! Thank a lawyer and then kick him in the nuts Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #17 November 25, 2010 Well if there weren't greedy people looking to strike it big with a lawsuit then there wouldn't be lawyers to help them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JerryBaumchen 1,325 #18 November 25, 2010 Hi beowulf, Quote if there weren't greedy people looking to strike it big Now we are getting to the truth of the situation. No attorney can sue on HIS OWN behalf because he ( the attorney ) is NOT the injured party. It is Mom, Dad, Wifey, etc who are the injured parties. 'Injured' means that they have suffered in some manner. JerryBaumchen PS) For everyone who does not like the situation in this country: Have you EVER written a letter to your state legislator? I didn't think so. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
beowulf 1 #19 November 25, 2010 I think the hard reality is that no one wants to take responsibility for their own actions. It's easier to find someone to blame. Someone they can hurt to attempt to make themselves feel better and lawsuits are a way to fulfill that effort. Parents don't want to accept that guilt of letting their child take part in a risky sport and suffer the consequences of a mistake and skydiving is very unforgiving and will kill. As we all know skydiving is dangerous and can kill or paralyze you for life. If any parent allows their child to skydive they should be ready to accept the possibility of their child suffering the ultimate consequence with out looking to blame anyone but themselves. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rugby82 0 #20 November 25, 2010 I've read some post here on dropzone.com regarding tandems and other issues in the US. The problem really seems to be the US culture to sue everything and everyone for no apparent reason. Here in the Netherlands tandemmasters keep a simple rule. If you fit the harness you can do a tandem. I really like the European culture more then the, in this case, f***** up American culture. Keep it simple. The only downside the Netherlands has is that you have to have 1000 jumps before you can start doing tandems while this is 500 jumps in most European countries.Blue skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 137 #21 November 25, 2010 is the letter applicable outside the US ?scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
koppel 4 #22 November 25, 2010 QuoteThe only downside the Netherlands has is that you have to have 1000 jumps before you can start doing tandems while this is 500 jumps in most European countries. Here in Australia its the same. Funny thing was after my first 1,000 tandems I realised there was still lots to learn. I reckon a 1,000 jump minimum is a good start for any candidateI like my canopy... ...it lets me down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
popsjumper 2 #23 November 25, 2010 It says something about our skydiving culture that they would even have to write the letter. Do you subscribe to the idea that rules are made to be broken? Bullshit.My reality and yours are quite different. I think we're all Bozos on this bus. Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Para5-0 0 #24 November 25, 2010 QuoteThe only downside the Netherlands has is that you have to have 1000 jumps before you can start doing tandems while this is 500 jumps in most European countries. That is not a downside at all. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Rugby82 0 #25 November 25, 2010 QuoteQuoteThe only downside the Netherlands has is that you have to have 1000 jumps before you can start doing tandems while this is 500 jumps in most European countries. That is not a downside at all. Don't get me wrong. For me it isn't a downside. For most others in Europe it is becuase they can do tandems with 500 jumps. I think it's a good rule. It's a great responsibility to do tandems. They changed the rules in The Netherlands from 500 to 1000 years ago because of the incidents with "low-jumpnumber" tandemmasters.Blue skies! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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