Hand Cams, "Only" ?

Is it just me, or is this robbing Tandem students of a chance to see the actuall exit, (the part all their friends love) and getting that third person view?

I understand it is a great way to sell tandems,(once) simple fact, it is cheaper, BUt to not even "Offer" a camera person view, to me, is not only cheap, but cheating a new jumper of the best angle/perspective of video, which will sell other tandems!

I didnt; realise some DZ's were doing this now , until recently!

Sure it is a cost cutting solution, one less asss in the plane , now a small cessna can take two tandems, instead of one with video, and a fun jumper...but at the cost of returning/new jumpers, IMO!

hand cam vids won't attract anyone, they don't even come close to showing the excitment of skydiving!

First they get rid of the Camera Flyers, next the Manifest Girls (or Boys) will be replaced by ticket dispensing machines, and then they'll take aim on getting rid of the Instructors . . .

NickD

This has been discussed a bunch of times in the photo/vid forum an instructors forum. Yes, handcam is phasing out outside video at Cessna and turbine DZs. The other threads hit the topic well.

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First they get rid of the Camera Flyers, next the Manifest Girls (or Boys) will be replaced by ticket dispensing machines, and then they'll take aim on getting rid of the Instructors . . .

NickD

And then the Packers will unionize~

Forming the Federation of Unemployable Dregs Gouging Everyone...

Soon these F.U.D.G.E. Packers will take over the whole sport and the next thing ya know we'll ALL be eatin' Ramen Noodles!


I plead with you students...tell the DZO you want to 'opt-out'

~Don't settle for a measly Hand Job when the real thing is so much better!

You know you're old when...

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And then the Packers will unionize~

...makes you pine for Lombardi.

"

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Is it just me, or is this robbing Tandem students of a chance to see the actuall exit, (the part all their friends love) and getting that third person view? ..."

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What are you whining about?
Back when I used to do hand-cam, most of my videos included the airplane for three or four seconds after the exit. It was rather simple, just exit with my chest into the wind and turn to show the airplane in the background. We usually lost the airplane as we started to flatten out and I tossed the drogue. Including the exit was all part of "telling a story."

But I do agree with your "cheapskate DZO" comments. I was one of the first hand-cam TIs in Canada. When I decided to teach myself how to do hand-cam, it was to introduce a new revenue stream to the DZ, since the "cheapskate DZO" was never going to give me a raise.
But - a few years later - when that DZO decided that he did not have to PAY me any extra for doing hand-cam, I quit buying replacement tapes, quit recharging my batteries and quit taking my camera on skydives. Guess what happened to his new revenue stream??????

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Is it just me, or is this robbing Tandem students of a chance to see the actuall exit, (the part all their friends love) and getting that third person view? ..."

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What are you whining about?
Back when I used to do hand-cam, most of my videos included the airplane for three or four seconds after the exit. It was rather simple, just exit with my chest into the wind and turn to show the airplane in the background. We usually lost the airplane as we started to flatten out and I tossed the drogue. Including the exit was all part of "telling a story."

But I do agree with your "cheapskate DZO" comments. I was one of the first hand-cam TIs in Canada. When I decided to teach myself how to do hand-cam, it was to introduce a new revenue stream to the DZ, since the "cheapskate DZO" was never going to give me a raise.
But - a few years later - when that DZO decided that he did not have to PAY me any extra for doing hand-cam, I quit buying replacement tapes, quit recharging my batteries and quit taking my camera on skydives. Guess what happened to his new revenue stream??????

Hand cam is a great corner cutter for students that don;t want the exspence....but to not offer the whole package is cheating the student....and a half ass way to run business...IMO

Excuse me repost police for not searching the whole internet to see if this was brought up before!

I think handcams are great IF they where combined with outside video.
Normal video miss a big part of the jump, the canopyride down.

You get video of everything, geting dressed, going in to the plane, plane ride, exit, freefall, pull, and then the camera just disapears untill you land.
Thats a very big important part of the jump.
If the TI would have a handcam you could get that part to on video.

But if i would choose between one or the other, i say outside video.

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I think handcams are great IF they where combined with outside video.Normal video miss a big part of the jump, the canopyride down.

You get video of everything, geting dressed, going in to the plane, plane ride, exit, freefall, pull, and then the camera just disapears untill you land.
Thats a very big important part of the jump.
If the TI would have a handcam you could get that part to on video.

But if i would choose between one or the other, i say outside video.

Exactly....

This link was just sent to me, Can you say Bloody nose close-up soon to happen? Go Pro, on teh student....
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=154651524579963&set=a.154651371246645.27588.130982573613525

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Hand cam is a great corner cutter for students that don;t want the exspence....but to not offer the whole package is cheating the student....and a half ass way to run business...IMO

I do not know what the costs are in the United States, but I imagine the margins are similar as to here in NZ.

We charge $299 for a tandem and in the US it is about $200? depending on where you go.

TIMES HAVE CHANGED.

Our margin of profit if we take 2 tandems (no camera) in a C185 to 12k are slim, If we take 1 tandem with a camera guy... same. The productivity is also out the window, and people will go to the (turbine)
DZ down the road that doesn't split up the couples if they decide to get outside camera.

Handcam has become a necessity for New DZ's. At least here, it would not be worth it anymore if handcam was not available.

On the other hand, once your business is built up a bit and you can run a turbine that has the capability of at least 9 pax.

then you get back into the outside camera territory but it must be a good percentage more to purchase it.

This is where we are at right now, we have a turbine on the way and camera guys on standby for when it does.

We will still offer handcam as well as outside video and a combination of both.

Your rationale you say handcam rips of the customer by not showing the exit....

...is incorrect.

Handicam does show the exit, the expession on the face of the student, and also shows thier reaction once the canopy opens, them flying the parachute..., so not offering handcam is ripping off the customers.

Offering both is the way forward.

But my point is, without handcam it is next to impossible to make/create a profitable tandem skydiving business these days, a club may be able to break even bhut there will be little profit to subsidise the sport jumpers, couples that wish to jump together will be stuck of you have a 182, 185.....

Try opening a DZ, adding the costs together, then come back to us.

I'm going to work now, chucking drogues, hauling punters - not taking students -and I'll hand cam them all. Got a gopro set in photo mode so I can sell photos taken every 2 seconds from the same single POV as the video. I'll use copyrighted music on the DVDs and I'll sell as many as I can. When I've finished I'll have a cold beer and count the cash.

I'll sleep well tonight knowing that I haven't forced anyone to buy something that they didn't want and that I can feed my family for another few days.

..and little do the customers realize how lucky they are either way.

The professional quality product they receive today is a far cry from the Polaroid standing next to the plane that was only just becoming popular as an 'advertising' tool as well as a remembrance of the event...'back in the day'!

Job security for vidiots aside, if it's a matter of more profit per load for the DZO then there really is no question.

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..and little do the customers realize how lucky they are either way.

The professional quality product they receive today is a far cry from the Polaroid standing next to the plane that was only just becoming popular as an 'advertising' tool as well as a remembrance of the event...'back in the day'!

Even recently the change from DV cameras to solid state cameras has made a huge difference in quality.

170 degree FOV for handcam is awesome.

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Job security for vidiots aside, if it's a matter of more profit per load for the DZO then there really is no question.

Job security for vidiots is not a problem if they would move on and get a tandem rating once they have 1000-2000 jumps.

It is vidiots that do not move on to tandem that make the roadblock for up and coming vidiots and T/M's.

The demad for outside camera will always be there, but the ability to deliver it without costing the DZOI money may not be.

DZO's are not there to 'Give' jumpers thier fun, they provide a facility that jumpers can obtain it.

I beleive we would be foolish to not supply outside camera at our DZ and it has been a primary focus of mine since the word Go.

(I too want to do outside camera as I enjoy it the most)

Handicam has made it possible for us to get to the point where we can provide it!

I have flown a lot of video, one of the best I ever put together was when the TI had a handcam, the footage we put together from my primary outside perspective-the 2nd outside cameraman and the hand cam was insanely cool, during opening shock he was able to keep the student in frame, plus he gave her the toggles then filmed her hooting and hollering "I'm flying!!" LOL - the handcam gave a perspective that otherwise would have been lost

this was for a very young lady dying of cancer, skydiving was on the top of her list of things to do before cancer took her.

I personally delivered the video and they insisted I have a drink and watch it with them... the entire family's reaction was one of excitement and awe - the laughter as she was screaming "I'm flying" still makes me smile.

like you said, added to outside video it adds so much, as a stand alone its too little

Roy

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the footage we put together from my primary outside perspective-the 2nd outside cameraman and the hand cam was insanely cool, during opening shock he was able to keep the student in frame, plus he gave her the toggles then filmed her hooting and hollering "I'm flying!!" LOL - the handcam gave a perspective that otherwise would have been lost...


...the laughter as she was screaming "I'm flying" still makes me smile.

like you said, added to outside video it adds so much, as a stand alone its too little.

So in your mind you don;t think that laughter as she said "i'm flying" (that is impossible to capture with outside video) is not enough?

For some Handicam is more preferable as they want to see their face in the screen the whole time, they want the footage under parachute and their reaction upon opening.

For others they don't want to see their face flapping in the wind, they want more scenery (if there is any) and they want to see the parachute from the outside perspective upon landing.

Handicam is good for those that want it.

Outside camera is good for those that want it.

Both, is the best option for most, exept those that really do not want to see their face flapping. Which requires an outside camera man to keep their distance.

I too used to be a camera guy that didn't really like the concept if hand cam on its own.

But after doing a couple of thousand of them and seeing the reactions from customers that get it. I have changed my mind.

Handcam in some cases provides EXACTLY what the customer prefers.

Each to thier own, and that is why either or a combination of the two should be offered at every dropzone, let the customer decide what they want.

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And then the Packers will unionize~

Forming the Federation of Unemployable Dregs Gouging Everyone...

Soon these F.U.D.G.E. Packers will take over the whole sport...

Where do I sign up?

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And then the Packers will unionize~

Forming the Federation of Unemployable Dregs Gouging Everyone...

Soon these F.U.D.G.E. Packers will take over the whole sport...

Where do I sign up?

Registration is around back.

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Hand cam is a great corner cutter for students that don;t want the exspence....but to not offer the whole package is cheating the student....and a half ass way to run business...IMO

I do not know what the costs are in the United States, but I imagine the margins are similar as to here in NZ.

We charge $299 for a tandem and in the US it is about $200? depending on where you go.

TIMES HAVE CHANGED.

Our margin of profit if we take 2 tandems (no camera) in a C185 to 12k are slim, If we take 1 tandem with a camera guy... same. The productivity is also out the window, and people will go to the (turbine)
DZ down the road that doesn't split up the couples if they decide to get outside camera.

Handcam has become a necessity for New DZ's. At least here, it would not be worth it anymore if handcam was not available.

On the other hand, once your business is built up a bit and you can run a turbine that has the capability of at least 9 pax.

then you get back into the outside camera territory but it must be a good percentage more to purchase it.

This is where we are at right now, we have a turbine on the way and camera guys on standby for when it does.

We will still offer handcam as well as outside video and a combination of both.

Your rationale you say handcam rips of the customer by not showing the exit....

...is incorrect.

Handicam does show the exit, the expession on the face of the student, and also shows thier reaction once the canopy opens, them flying the parachute..., so not offering handcam is ripping off the customers.

Offering both is the way forward.

But my point is, without handcam it is next to impossible to make/create a profitable tandem skydiving business these days, a club may be able to break even bhut there will be little profit to subsidise the sport jumpers, couples that wish to jump together will be stuck of you have a 182, 185.....

Try opening a DZ, adding the costs together, then come back to us.

I call Bullshit...
Givcen the chance for a quility video, most student swould opt to pay that extra slot plus video charges..,to not eveb "Offer" the option, is screwing the customer, and losing many resale chances...hand held cams are BORING.......Show me one hand held cam video that will sell a new customer...

The work I provided included more than just the jump itself, I made sure to include friends and family on the ground footage, I have yet to see a TI doing this. I wish every tandem could have outside and handcam video to really provide a well rounded memory that could be shared with all their friends.

once you see what you can get when both are combined leaves either stand alone option lacking, but if one has to be chosen then in my opinion the outside gives the greater overall experience to share with friends and family.

Roy

Even if i have not seen the video im sure you are correct, is probably an amazing video.

In the airplane you usually get better video from a external camera than the handcam.
The videoman can climb out and focus on the student and get good video.
The handcam usually (i have not yet seen one that is not) is very jerky, which i understand, you need the arms to get out of the plane.
But it lowers the overall quality of the video.
The option would be to cut it out, and just have video from when you are sitting on the edge of the plane, but then you would miss the excitment of geting closer to the door.

Handcams can capture very nice exitshots because if the camera is aimed correct you can see the fear in their eyes.
If that would be external camera you would get very nice video of the "complete" exit if the cameraman does not F up the exit.

When it comes to the freefall part the handcam gets very nice closeup shots but not much else in my opinion.
The videoman can get a closeup that is as good as the handcam, but usually does not.

The canopyride is a must in a tendemvideo in my opinion.
If you want to tell the story of a tandemjump you must have it all on video, you can not leave out ~1/4 or 1/5 of the experience.
You need to have the scilence, the smal conversations that goes on up there, the veiw, the student controling the canopy themselfs.
All of this is lost when using videoman.

Then the landing has to be taken with external camera, when the TI is landing the canopy you, obviously, get crappy video.
Having external video on landing is a must.

In my opinion the only video, is combined video.
This debate about handcam vs external video has two sides.
Both saying the other is a ripoff. I think my opinion in this is a third option, that you must have both to get the whole experience.
I would not say that external or handcam alone is a ripoff, but to get a good video of it ALL you need a combination.

I think it would be awsome if this is understood, and that we can stop this fighting about handcam vs external and focus on delivering a good product instead.
I understand what Rhys is saying that its working on all DZs but for big turbine DZs the only problem i see is the cost (?).

Now flame me

If you have a student with the money to pay for it and the aircraft capacity to handle it, you could have six outside videos going...that would make an even better show.

But it's a numbers game, and if you have a 182 it just makes economic sense to have two tandems paying for the burning of the gas.

It took a while for up jumpers top finally understand that at times 'their' loads were being push back to accommodate students...which better subsidize the operation as a whole.

Vidiots are at some places at some times going to experience that same thing...it's not about having a Hollywood production quality video...it's about making money.

Skydiving IS a business these days...

"Tandem jumping has done the same thing to skydiving that fat skis have done to the sport of alpine skiing.
Now, even fat out-of-shape old people with no athletic ability can do it too!"

"This is not a dropzone, it is a fucking amusement park"

"Hand-cams are just the final nail on the coffin, that bowling thing is starting to look good"

I got the inspiration for this video from a friend coming back from New Zealand and telling me about tandem only/ hand cam only dropzones...
I think nothing can replace quality video (not even talking about stills....) from an outside videoperson...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLcN7nsWwwU

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I think nothing can replace quality video (not even talking about stills....) from an outside videoperson...

Depends.
If the video is done good, then i agree.
But a lot of tandemvideos i have seen is really bad.
You can clearly see that all involved in the video just thinks its another day at work just doing what i have to do.
And the videoedit is the same quality.
The end result of it is the tandemfactory video, nothing that makes this video any differnt from the next.

Is that quality video?