Storm Vs Epicene

Can anyone think of any WS-specific 9 cell canopies out there? (Sabre1 does not count...)

BryanCampau

Haha look at that tail flutter on that suit in the beginning. :) **Slowly steps away from the angry fan boys**

Yet it still outperforms other designs

lyosha

Can anyone think of any WS-specific 9 cell canopies out there? (Sabre1 does not count...)

I have been very happy with my good ol' Pilot. Opens faster than Sabre2 and never had any problems if only I kept good opening position. have been flying it with Phantom2, Swft, HavocC, Funk and Aura

I didn't realize people bought acro suits for performance.

I also don't know how it can be definitive that one brand outperforms another. I think there is a lot more to do with the pilot than people give credit to. Designs are so close that people are talking about covering their chest straps and three rings to get the edge on competition. Or buying an aurora to flatten the rig. Or buying a more efficient helmet. I think all the performance suits are capable of getting on the podium and finishing first. I think the wingsuit tunnel may be the only legit way to accurately gauge performance of just the suit. It at least gets us closer anyhow. Let's give more credit to the pilots and less credit to Honda or Yamaha or whoever makes the model they are either paid to fly or fly on their own free will.

I'll put it this way.

If I raced Jarno, he'd beat me in pretty much every suit combination. On the other hand if I raced myself I would clearly gain from performance advantages of the suit.

So of course it's about the pilot, but still even (or especially) the best pilots in the world have multiple suits and change them according to what they do - to make their life easier

BryanCampau

I didn't realize people bought acro suits for performance.

Why do you think suits like Freak, Strix, Havoc or Funk exist and are so popular?

I certainly see your point.

I haven't met someone that has had 40+ jumps on a Jedei, Alpine, and C Race. But i'm sure they do exist but even then we can't compare flysight data since there is other factors. We can only go by what the "feel" is the better suit. The data just doesn't exist to say definitively.

The point being it is very difficult to say with any accuracy that one suit is better then another in terms of performance.

Why is the discussion turned to suits?
For what it is worth a cr+ easily out performs a freak, same size and weight pilots.

Back to canopies though:

How many of you are having the same issues as these top level WS skydivers and WS base jumps who swear by WS specific canopies?

it makes me laugh in the marketing videos when I hear "before this canopy I was scared to jump my wingsuit due to unreliable openings/line twists etc."

My guess is that the top guys jump small containers and have small canopies for wingsuiting and that is the main reason for "scary deployments". The low bulk gets them back to a reasonable wingloading.
Which is fine till you have to deploy your 100sqft reserve in your wingsuit...

Old pilot @ 1.3WL = worry free openings

That was my fault for sticking a jab at the suit in the promo video. I'll try to bite my tongue on suit talk in a canopy discussion. :)

The only canopy issues i've had is when my wing loading was around 1.5+. Basically when my wing loading was high enough to potentially turn line twist into a cutaway.

I tried the Epicene but hated the F111 flight characteristics.

I have to agree with you - i'm currently on a Storm with a 1.3 WL and have no issues.

lyosha

Can anyone think of any WS-specific 9 cell canopies out there? (Sabre1 does not count...)

but its the best one...

DHemer

it makes me laugh in the marketing videos when I hear "before this canopy I was scared to jump my wingsuit due to unreliable openings/line twists etc."

+1

Probably because their skydiving discipline of choice is something other than WS so they downsized hard and don't want to buy another container that fits a more appropriately sized canopy - for what is really just occasional WS.

No issues with my Sabre 2 at 1.1 WL.

Anybody jumping with a Triathlon? I use a 120 loaded at 1.5, only few jumps in a Swift 1 and so far and the openings were...hmmm interestingIf I roll the nose it seems to snivel a bit longer, if I don't it opens pretty damn hard. And it pretty much sinks straight down if it's windy :P Anyone have some experience with them?
BTW, here you can see my worst opening so far :P
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ12vWrhp4c

johnmatrix

***
it makes me laugh in the marketing videos when I hear "before this canopy I was scared to jump my wingsuit due to unreliable openings/line twists etc."

+1

Probably because their skydiving discipline of choice is something other than WS so they downsized hard and don't want to buy another container that fits a more appropriately sized canopy - for what is really just occasional WS.

No issues with my Sabre 2 at 1.1 WL.

This was/is honestly a problem for a lot of people. About 10 years ago, it seems that wingsuiters would fall into two groups. Old guys who wanted to be cool and didnt want to do just RW anymore and didnt freefly, and young guys who wanted to base jump. Both of these groups jump on average pretty large canopies, and the suits were pretty darn small (V2 being the massive suit of the era).

In the last 5 years or so, all the cool freefly kids have found out that wingsuits are super fun. Its easy to tell a cool freeflier by their ultra small skydiving rig. Wingsuits during this time got bigger, and videos of canopies getting sucked into burbles on opening started showing up, and people got tired of cutting away small canopies, but didnt want to have a student rig that they kept around for wingsuiting. Enter the ultralight canopy and its ability to fit a 150 size canopy in the same container as your 70 velocity (or your backup rig that has a 75 in it). No one cool has a rig that fits a 170 non-low bulk canopy.

I personally did more what you said above, rapidly downsized to a 120 in my first 2 years of jumping, and loved my sabre 1 120 for many many years of wingsuit flying with perfect openings. I got an apache prototype in 2012, and noticed that every suit of that size or large I flew, my openings were inconsistent at best, and terrifying at worse. I was much more scared to skydive a wingsuit than base jump it, and would do things like own a suit that had 2 skydives and 100 base jumps on it. Episcene 150 went in the container, openings became beautiful again. Skydiving became more fun again.

If that kind of a story applies to your jumping, then yes, get a wingsuit specific canopy. If youre jumping a sabre2 170 already, or have a smaller wingsuit, then no, you dont really need a low bulk or wingsuit specific canopy. If you jump at a dz that has a bunch of cool sponsored jumpers that jump xyz sweet low bulk canopy, then yes, you probably should get one or youll feel ashamed a lot.

I found this thread really interesting after not having read dropzone for a while. Enjoying both wingsuits, canopy flight and brand wars I want to mention a few points.

1. @jarno. I can pack in 20 seconds. I just take off my rig and throw 8 dollars at the nearest packer. I would post video, but I just dont't have enough time to do that, I sort of have a lot of stuff going on, and I totally forgot the password for my youtube account, if not I would just stream it.

2. The discussion was originally about pros and cons of two parachutes that are meant for WS pilots. WS pilots are usually experienced pilots that may have this as their 2nd canopy. These types of canopies are boring and docile and meant to open very safe and provide easy landings. It was pointed out by Anachronist that pretty much any canopy will do the job, and to this I agree. If someone like BryanCampau is getting sore ankles from any of these parachutes, it is either user error or some weird winds that interfered with the landing. Bryan..check your legstraps, are they muddy/grassy on their back? Yeah??, Well thats because you don't know how to operate a toggle.

3. The Epicene has some properties that makes it pretty awesome if you like consistent openings and low pack volume. I dont think there is any difference in flight characteristics because of it's low-bulk cloth from Porcher Sport. It still has a ZP nose and the nose is where aerodynamic stuff is happening. So at least the important nose will last as long as a ZP canopy.
I have the same material on my BASE canopy I have dragged it around in snow, blood saltwater mud and dessert-dust since 2007 and put a whole bunch of jumps on it. It still opens and flies like a champ. Will the Epicene still perform after 1000 jumps? I think so, but if not I would just sell it and buy a new one. After 1000 jumps you have spent about of 30000$ on jump tickets and packing and transport to the dropzone weekend after weekend. In the grand scheme its pointless to worry if your canopy is worth 300 or 600 dollars after you put 1000 jumps on it. Just buy the best canopy and sell it when you wanna try something else. Getting a new canopy is fun.

4. BryanCampaus claim that most wingsuits performs about the same.
I also find it confusing sometimes. What wingsuit is the best. Certainly wingsuits development has come a long ways the last 15 years. And this is because some manufacturers are better than other. We as consumers should absolutely fire up the brand wars whether its Squirrel vs Phoenix or Android vs Iphone. Otherwise we would all be flying Bird-man suits and having Nokias.

With large flashing banners on this very website it says that Squirrel has won over Phoenix in this and that red-bull competition. Looking at the Paralog website, the Squirrel suits are all over the top of that list. Does this mean Squirrel are super slick at marketing and knows how to sponsor the right people? While Robert is more like the authentic hard-core BASE jumper dude from Europe? Hard to say...but my thoughts as an average skydiver Joe was: "What if you just give the suits to the average skydiving Joes and see how they do?"

Thankfully there is a website that keeps track of performance among random skydivers with GPS and internet access:
https://ppc.paralog.net/listtracks.php?sort=Distance
Unfortunately it doesn't sort by manufacturer. So I had to use my amazing skills about which manufacturer makes which suit and then I was able to do a comparison between Phoenix and Squirrel.

Of all the Phoenix fly suits in the distance category the median distance was 2.13kms.
Of all the Squirrel suits the median distance was 2.581kms.

I was too lazy to do the same for speed. But someone should try it for the speed challenge.

I was mostly upset about the criticism of low-bulk material. It flies great and it smells even better and also it sounds great when it falls quietly behind you. Not like noisy ZP.

0584

2. The discussion was originally about pros and cons of two parachutes that are meant for WS pilots.

Hmm the Storm was never really "developed" for wingsuiting, it was developed for CRW. It was then suddenly marketed as made for Wingsuiting by PD (and some sponsored pilots). Someone pls correct me if that is not true.

There seem to be 4 canopies on the market that has been developed specifically for Wingsuiters in the skydiving environment and wich could be grouped into two categories:

1) Lo po materials: Squirrel Epicene and PD Horizon
2) ZP (lo po as an option): Atair Winx and Aerodyne Pilot-7

for 1) you have lower bulk, but you also need to up-size a lot in order to have a decent flare under all circumstances and larger canopy brings packvolume back up. Add to that the canopies degrades fast in comparison to ZP canopies. It would great to have some comparisons from non-sponsored people btw these two. Right now we have only marketing materials and marketing people claiming this and that

for 2) you have somewhat larger bulk given ZP but you can use "normal" skydiving wl and you enjoy better flight characteristics and much better landings off course and for 1000+ jumps. Btw these two a comparison from non sponsored people would also be nice.

Interesting thread, there are a lot of good canopies and wingsuits out there, each with their own merits and demerits. What suits one necessarily may not suit the other. Nevertheless, I observed that there is no mention of Icarus 7 cell canopies like omega and omni which previously have been compared to spectre and storm quite a bit. Any inputs on, if they can be considered as good wingsuit canopies?

birdynamnam

for 1) you have lower bulk, but you also need to up-size a lot in order to have a decent flare

I'm not really sure this reasoning follows the laws of physics. Assuming the pilot knows what they are doing, the more speed you have the better the flare. So smaller canopy would give you a better flare, not bigger.

Unless there's something I'm missing, so can you explain?

skow

Unless there's something I'm missing, so can you explain?

Lo Po (f111) fabric wing will not flare as well as the exact same design in Zero P fabric as it bleeds air during the flare.
While flaring the internal pressure will increase which in turn will force additional air out the canopy

As airspeed decreases you then have a canopy with less internal pressure than would be the case with a Zero P wing and this is less efficient at creating lift.

Please someone shoot me down if my understanding is incorrect though. good to learn

Performance, so yes on all that. "ZP paved the way for an extreme form of parachuting called “swooping,” and the sport has never been the same.."

.. and durability
I would also add that F-111 and similar fabrics at 0-3 cfm wear out pretty darn fast. I know from experience. I have had many F-111 canopies back then, bought them from new, US made, French made, SA made. Some would have decent flare power up until 200 jumps, I had one that lasted to 400 jumps. I also had one also from new, that at 70 jumps, had about zero flare-power left. Back then 80es, 90es a main was as expensive as it is today, so imagine that...

birdynamnam

Back then 80es, 90es a main was as expensive as it is today, so imagine that...

A wise man once said, "nobody rides for free".

0584 - I can tell you are very proud of yourself and I'd like to thank you for a good laugh. I won't get involved in the brand war discussion on this thread. GPS data is great and all but winds make or break the data. In comps they jump in close conditions to minimize the wind affect and I don't see only one brand on the podium. If you want to take wind out then take a look at who's dominating time. But regardless - the data is not conclusive. I say throw them all in a wingsuit wind tunnel with a non biased pilot and have them max out the suits in all three aspects. That would be an accurate test. We all fly what we want to and it's a good thing. All manufacturers push to improve and the sport evolves.

But back to the subject of companies. I have to agree with you. I suck at landing f111 canopies and I'd say most people do. F111 is going to land like f111. There is a reason f111s are only used for low bulk and the modern non WS canopy pilot flys ZP. Sure....if you have a tiny container and you need a canopy you can squeeze in there then it is the choice for you.

Now excuse me....I've got to go clean my leg straps. Haha! Never mind, I jump a storm with a low wingloading. :)

Yeah, true wind totally matters when you record GPS data. The reason the top 2 placements are 20% better than number three is probably because they were done one hour apart in screaming downwind. This affects the maximum and the average. But not so much the median. Which is what I looked at. The median is the number in the middle.

Do you really think squirrel pilots only fly downwind while phoenix pilots only fly upwind. I dont think so , Phoenix pilots sometimes have downwind, and sometimes upwind same as the Squirrel pilots, over time the numbers equal out. Never 100% but closer to 100% every single jump that is recorded.

The container size is of great importance when you fly wingsuit. Lower profile containers lets you fly your wingsuit with a slicker profile on your back and that means less drag. The lower the packing volume you have per sqft of canopy, the lower profile container you could have while flying. To me this is a main selling point for the Epicene.

Is there a flight performance sacrifice to be made by lowering the packing volume? Yes maybe but its not even noticable for most people as they do NOT suck at landing a F111 canopy.
Did you know every single BASE canopy is made of F111 or low bulk material, they are landed daily in tough landing areas. F111 or low bulk material also have better opening characteristics in my opinion.

I agree ZP have marginally better characteristics that become noticeable at higher speed. For a swooping canopy it would matter a lot. But its not even worth thinking about for a lightly loaded canopy like this one.

There's no way in heck i'm gonna downsize my container and fill it full of small, low bulk canopies to get a drag reduction to very slightly improve my performance. Base F111 canopies are a completely separate topic....the sizes are no where near comparable. I think we just have very different priorities in wingsuit flying.

The Squirrel line up has significantly more large profile suits than Phoenix Fly. So how can the median be very revealing? Also there is more to performance then just glide and the posted tracks may be pilots going for speed or time. If you look at the top rankings in each category there is a healthy mix of PF, Tony, & Squirrel. I don't think your numbers are an accurate or impressive assessment of an entire brand. - I think you just really love Squirrel. And that's okay...brand wars are ugly and we are all free to fly what we like to fly. :)

Yeah I guess we have different priorities in wingsuit flying. I like a canopy that is low bulk so I can focus on thin profile and optimize my wingsuit performance. I also like to have safe and consistent openings. While you just need something that fits in your old container and is appropriate for your skill level and lasts until 2030.

Now for the brand war.
Your healthy mix of wingsuits may not be as healthy as you think.
https://ppc.paralog.net/listtracks.php?sort=Distance

Squirrel suits stands for 126 entries on that list. 13 of them are on the top 50. (10.3%)
Phoenix fly stands for 353 entries to that list. 3 of them are on the top 50. (0.8%)
The suits from the two companies are C-race and CR+ vs Vampire Alpine and Viper. I think these are comparable in size. Maybe all the other 350 phoenix birds that tried to get into top 50 had headwind or something?

In the speed category I did not make spreadsheet, but counted 13 squirrels and 2 phoenix among the top 50. Whats not to love about that?

My last post on this thread since my responses are obviously just fueling your antics and no one is benefiting from reading this. Keep drinking the kool aid, here's the top of all three classic and both FAI verified listings. Where's the validation for your ego in this data? Well...it doesn't exist. There is 3 aspects that make up performance. Anyone can find a piece of data to support a different argument.

Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and everyone elses stinks! No need to get bent out of shape over it.

0584

The suits from the two companies are C-race and CR+ vs Vampire Alpine and Viper. I think these are comparable in size.

Not really. Size-wise I would suspect the Vampire Sukhoi is around the same size as the C-Race but there's more to it than just size.
The Alpine would probably be the best choice from the PF lineup for performance racing, but I think it was actually engineered primarily for short starts in the BASE environment. The Viper was really just a super-massive suit that never really became popular.

A more interesting comparison would be between Squirrel and Tony Suits. I think until the advent of the C-Race the majority of the top scores were Tony Suits - Jedeis and Rebels I think.

DHemer

Lo Po (f111) fabric wing will not flare as well as the exact same design in Zero P fabric as it bleeds air during the flare.
While flaring the internal pressure will increase which in turn will force additional air out the canopy

I think we talk about different things. I'm talking about the same canopy in different sizes. It is a fact that F111 (or 0-3 cfm) canopies flare worse than ZP.

And this was my point - that you shouldn't upsize when switching to F111 because small canopy (if we talk only about flare) will work better, which I think we agree on :)

DHemer

As airspeed decreases you then have a canopy with less internal pressure than would be the case with a Zero P wing and this is less efficient at creating lift.

(Edited to make it more readable)