Swift to ATC Step-up?

I have around 60 WS jumps. 10 on a Hatch, 50 on a Swift 3. I was looking into getting an ATC. I dont feel the need to fly an ATC now, but considering the lead time on a new suit I would likely be able to put in another 50 jumps on my Swift 3 by the time the ATC arrived. My goal is to put 100 jumps on my S3 total before switching suits.

What I am wondering is how much of a step up from the Swift the ATC is and whether I would be better suited with a Funk 3 or ATC. I dont like the gripperless design of the Funk 3 all too much, but it does seem like a bit smaller of a suit. Thanks.

Sounds reasonable.

In my opinion, the Funk and ATC are diverging paths of wingsuit progression, and you should choose the one that suits the type of flying you plan to do and best matches up with the prevailing suit types at the DZ's you jump most.

If you want to get heavy into acro, and the other jumpers you will likely by flying a bunch with are on mid size acro suits like the Funk/Carve etc, then you may want to go that direction.

If you wanna fly fast and dynamic, and the more experienced flyers you are hoping to hang with are on Freaks/Strix/etc, then the ATC is definitely the correct choice out of the two. It flys fast enough to hang with all the big suits as long as they aren't raging TOO hard or trying to leave you. In my personal opinion, if you are hitting it hard for 100 jumps on a Swift 2/3, you shouldn't have any trouble transitioning to an ATC. You will DEFINITELY however, be very impressed with the increased performance it brings.

Happy hunting!

And this is the path people take here, had 5 guys doing this progression from Swift2/3's to ATC.

ATC are easy to fly. You must consider deployment technique however. Eventhough the ATC's tailwing is not larger than e.g. the Funk's tailwing, it flies pretty much like a big suit also when it comes to deployments - meaning you must get coaching in deployment technique. Gone are the collapse wings, deploy. You will have to Talk to a guy at your DZ or neighbouring DZ, who flies an ATC, Freak or the like and get that coaching. Also revisit your skydiving gear. Do you have al large enough and fresh PC, long enough bridle, open corners, semi stowles bag, etc, as that will help also, but most importantly get that coaching

birdynamnam

And this is the path people take here, had 5 guys doing this progression from Swift2/3's to ATC.

ATC are easy to fly. You must consider deployment technique however. Eventhough the ATC's tailwing is not larger than e.g. the Funk's tailwing, it flies pretty much like a big suit also when it comes to deployments - meaning you must get coaching in deployment technique. Gone are the collapse wings, deploy. You will have to Talk to a guy at your DZ or neighbouring DZ, who flies an ATC, Freak or the like and get that coaching. Also revisit your skydiving gear. Do you have al large enough and fresh PC, long enough bridle, open corners, semi stowles bag, etc, as that will help also, but most importantly get that coaching

Unfortunately at my DZ WS is a fringe discipline. There are maybe four somewhat regular wingsuiters at my entire DZ. As such, coaching can be a bit limited and easily half of my jumps end up being solo, but I try to get some advice or fly with someone better than me every chance I get. That's why I wanted 100 jumps on the S3 before flying the ATC because many of those jumps end up being solos.

Anyway, I feel that my deployment technique is functional on the S3. I am not sure how it would transfer over to the ATC, but this is what I do. From full flight:

1. Flare by pushing down on the arm wings and hold for about three seconds until there is a noticeable decrease in flight speed.

2. Conduct the following simultaneously:
a. Arch & head up
b. Symmetrically reach back with both arms.
c. Without collapsing the leg wing, bring my knees forward to about 60 degrees, just like flying in brakes.

3. While keeping the leg wing at 60 degrees like flying in brakes, bring the arm wings back out to full flight and toss the PC once my arms are fully extended.

4. Still keep the knees at 60 degrees like flying in brakes, but use the arm wings to continue flying as straight and symmetrical as possible until the parachute opens.**

5. As soon as the parachute opens, bring knees all the way up at 90 degrees, punch out of the arm wings, and grab the risers to attempt to clear any body twists that may happen.

**I've been told by some that once I toss the PC, instead of keeping the arm wings in full flight to help stabilize my flight, I should collapse them to reduce my burble. I havent tried that yet though.

**** The reason why I bring my knees foward to 60 degrees during deployment is because it helps remind me to bring them up fully once the parachute opens (to avoid getting thrown forward and almost kicking the risers), and I theorize it reduces my burble footprint since I am moving some of the leg wing under me and it further reduces my airspeed. No idea if that's true or not though.

I dont know whether that would work for the ATC or not, but it's been working great on my Swift so far.

Well, it's about throttling the forward speed and deploying into clean air really. You might read this also: https://www.smallteaser.com/@mattg/article/thinking-about-wingsuit-openings

20kN

***And this is the path people take here, had 5 guys doing this progression from Swift2/3's to ATC.

ATC are easy to fly. You must consider deployment technique however. Eventhough the ATC's tailwing is not larger than e.g. the Funk's tailwing, it flies pretty much like a big suit also when it comes to deployments - meaning you must get coaching in deployment technique. Gone are the collapse wings, deploy. You will have to Talk to a guy at your DZ or neighbouring DZ, who flies an ATC, Freak or the like and get that coaching. Also revisit your skydiving gear. Do you have al large enough and fresh PC, long enough bridle, open corners, semi stowles bag, etc, as that will help also, but most importantly get that coaching

Unfortunately at my DZ WS is a fringe discipline. There are maybe four somewhat regular wingsuiters at my entire DZ. As such, coaching can be a bit limited and easily half of my jumps end up being solo, but I try to get some advice or fly with someone better than me every chance I get. That's why I wanted 100 jumps on the S3 before flying the ATC because many of those jumps end up being solos.

Anyway, I feel that my deployment technique is functional on the S3. I am not sure how it would transfer over to the ATC, but this is what I do. From full flight:

1. Flare by pushing down on the arm wings and hold for about three seconds until there is a noticeable decrease in flight speed.

2. Conduct the following simultaneously:
a. Arch & head up
b. Symmetrically reach back with both arms.
c. Without collapsing the leg wing, bring my knees forward to about 60 degrees, just like flying in brakes.

3. While keeping the leg wing at 60 degrees like flying in brakes, bring the arm wings back out to full flight and toss the PC once my arms are fully extended.

4. Still keep the knees at 60 degrees like flying in brakes, but use the arm wings to continue flying as straight and symmetrical as possible until the parachute opens.**

5. As soon as the parachute opens, bring knees all the way up at 90 degrees, punch out of the arm wings, and grab the risers to attempt to clear any body twists that may happen.

**I've been told by some that once I toss the PC, instead of keeping the arm wings in full flight to help stabilize my flight, I should collapse them to reduce my burble. I havent tried that yet though.

**** The reason why I bring my knees foward to 60 degrees during deployment is because it helps remind me to bring them up fully once the parachute opens (to avoid getting thrown forward and almost kicking the risers), and I theorize it reduces my burble footprint since I am moving some of the leg wing under me and it further reduces my airspeed. No idea if that's true or not though.

I dont know whether that would work for the ATC or not, but it's been working great on my Swift so far.
You wont need to do all of that deployment technique when you get an ATC. I don't know anyone really that does that on a freak. Most people pitch in full flight or near the top of a flare. Go with an ATC. It will be a good step.

It’s not jump numbers, it’s about how you’re flying the smaller suit. I’ve seen someone make a very reasonable step up from a Phantom 3 to a Havok and cutaway first jump because they weren’t ready, because they weren’t flying their P3 all that well even though they had close to 100 jumps on it.

And then I had a tunnel instructor buddy who only had about 40 jumps on a Hatch that I recommend he go for a Hunter over a Havok because he was flying the Hatch like an absolute boss and wanted a suit that would have a slightly wider range than a Havok. .

Skipping the next step up isn’t a death sentence, but it shouldn’t be taken lightly and you should make sure you’re really making your current suit your bitch before considering upsizing at all, let alone a significant upsize.

20kN

***And this is the path people take here, had 5 guys doing this progression from Swift2/3's to ATC.

ATC are easy to fly. You must consider deployment technique however. Eventhough the ATC's tailwing is not larger than e.g. the Funk's tailwing, it flies pretty much like a big suit also when it comes to deployments - meaning you must get coaching in deployment technique. Gone are the collapse wings, deploy. You will have to Talk to a guy at your DZ or neighbouring DZ, who flies an ATC, Freak or the like and get that coaching. Also revisit your skydiving gear. Do you have al large enough and fresh PC, long enough bridle, open corners, semi stowles bag, etc, as that will help also, but most importantly get that coaching

Unfortunately at my DZ WS is a fringe discipline. There are maybe four somewhat regular wingsuiters at my entire DZ. As such, coaching can be a bit limited and easily half of my jumps end up being solo, but I try to get some advice or fly with someone better than me every chance I get. That's why I wanted 100 jumps on the S3 before flying the ATC because many of those jumps end up being solos.

Anyway, I feel that my deployment technique is functional on the S3. I am not sure how it would transfer over to the ATC, but this is what I do. From full flight:

1. Flare by pushing down on the arm wings and hold for about three seconds until there is a noticeable decrease in flight speed.

2. Conduct the following simultaneously:
a. Arch & head up
b. Symmetrically reach back with both arms.
c. Without collapsing the leg wing, bring my knees forward to about 60 degrees, just like flying in brakes.

3. While keeping the leg wing at 60 degrees like flying in brakes, bring the arm wings back out to full flight and toss the PC once my arms are fully extended.

4. Still keep the knees at 60 degrees like flying in brakes, but use the arm wings to continue flying as straight and symmetrical as possible until the parachute opens.**

5. As soon as the parachute opens, bring knees all the way up at 90 degrees, punch out of the arm wings, and grab the risers to attempt to clear any body twists that may happen.

**I've been told by some that once I toss the PC, instead of keeping the arm wings in full flight to help stabilize my flight, I should collapse them to reduce my burble. I havent tried that yet though.

**** The reason why I bring my knees foward to 60 degrees during deployment is because it helps remind me to bring them up fully once the parachute opens (to avoid getting thrown forward and almost kicking the risers), and I theorize it reduces my burble footprint since I am moving some of the leg wing under me and it further reduces my airspeed. No idea if that's true or not though.

I dont know whether that would work for the ATC or not, but it's been working great on my Swift so far.
Theory is one thing (and good to know despite what some people write here omg). Feel free to PM me for direct support, this season I progressed 6 people from S2/3's to ATC actually. Some learning points was made

20kN

I have around 60 WS jumps. 10 on a Hatch, 50 on a Swift 3. I was looking into getting an ATC. I dont feel the need to fly an ATC now, but considering the lead time on a new suit I would likely be able to put in another 50 jumps on my Swift 3 by the time the ATC arrived. My goal is to put 100 jumps on my S3 total before switching suits.

What I am wondering is how much of a step up from the Swift the ATC is and whether I would be better suited with a Funk 3 or ATC. I dont like the gripperless design of the Funk 3 all too much, but it does seem like a bit smaller of a suit. Thanks.

Try to not break your face(from that HUGE smile) when you go UP for the 1st time!!!

You gonna love the ATC.

If you don't feel a need to fly it now then I would look more to skills and not focus on jump count. I had a lot of solos on the swift 3 and ended up going to an ATC at about 100 WS jumps. Looking back I might have rushed into the ATC because there wasn't a really good small suit scene and I wanted to fly with others.

I ended up spending a lot of time trying to balance learning the suit along with improving flocking skills. Flying solo a lot you don't get that perspective of how you handle flying relative to others. It's like learning to sit fly solo. You might be holding the position but backsliding and moving all over.

I'm sure you can fly the ATC solo right now just fine. In the bigger picture though, look at how you fly with others and how your basic skill set is progressing. I would also recommend looking for some good coaching from somewhere even if you need to travel some so that you can get good advice on your progression and development as a WS pilot.

good advice.

In general it takes some jumps to feel at home in a new suit, so those jumps for sure can be done "solo at your dz where there is no one to fly with". But do not do too many solos after this point as you might learn yourself some bad practices flying it. Get to that dz where skilled wingsuit pilots are to be found and go flock with them - as an ongoing activity going forward.

Judging by your questions it seems that you definitely are not ready for the ATC just yet. Of course it's not wrong that you ask, but shows that you don't have the big enough skill set and knowledge for ATC.

Also you opening technique seems really odd, especially with bringing you knees forward (you say brake - I say that puts you in a dive, just like angle fliers - unless I understand wrong what you're trying to say)

In other words, focus on your current suit until you get the opening position and other things right (also e.g. good exists so with more powerful suit you don't hit the stabilizer on the plane).

100% of people that I know who bought bigger suit "in-advance" switched the same minute they got it, even though they said they'd make X number of jumps before switching.

Also, don't rush. You'll look 10 times cooler out-flying guys in Funks with your Swift, than not keeping up with them in your ATC.

This is good advice. 20Kn, you need to learn to fly your swift as fast as you possibly can. Flying fast is where your power comes from and thus safety. When people start they want to get the longest flight times possible by flying slow and floaty. This is not the most efficient way to fly and will actually limit your progression. I fly with a couple guys that have ATC and love to fly slow and floaty, like 60mph slow. This is all they do and it makes it very difficult to fly with them in a bigger suit.

I admit I went from a swift 2 to an Freak 2 mostly because the ATC came out like a week later. I would absolutely buy an ATC as my next suit if I was still on my Swift and I still actually might buy one down the line.

skow

Also you opening technique seems really odd, especially with bringing you knees forward (you say brake - I say that puts you in a dive, just like angle fliers - unless I understand wrong what you're trying to say)

This video demonstrates the way I try to deploy. As shown in the video, the pilot has his knees forward while deploying, as opposed to keeping the leg wing fully straight as you would in fully flight. The main difference between what he does in the video and what I do is that I am not able to keep as head-high as he is. My body is closer to perpendicular with the ground, but otherwise the general body position and the way he deploys matches fairly closely what I try to do.

I dont know whether this is the best way to deploy, it's just what I have been doing so far and in the Swift it seems to work okay so far.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhCaQc8pJAU

LeeroyJenkins

This is good advice. 20Kn, you need to learn to fly your swift as fast as you possibly can. Flying fast is where your power comes from and thus safety.

I've heard others say that, but I havent really understood the why so far. I've done several jumps where myself and another Swift flew as fast as possible by staying steep. I found the jumps to be more challenging than if they flew at a slightly less steep angle. The issue was that when flying that steep, if the other Swift is maxed out and in front of me, it's really hard to catch him because my maximum speed is going to be similar to his. On the other hand, I've flown steep with ATCs and Freaks and been fine. I was able to keep up the whole time, so I am not sure. It's probably more of a pilot limitation than a suit limitation.

I dont know if it's right or wrong, but when I am the base I bring my knees forward to try to limit my forward speed until everyone catches up, then I go into full flight. I've found that makes for a more successful jump than just pinning it to the max and hoping everyone will catch up. Again, no idea if that's proper or not, just something I've tried.

When we say fly fast we mean horizontally, vertical speed isn't anything you should concern yourself with. If you don't own a flysight, get one.

Check out this three part series http://topgunbase.ws/speed-part-1-why-fly-fast/

It has some good info in there, it's about base but it still applies;

20kN

I have around 60 WS jumps. 10 on a Hatch, 50 on a Swift 3. I was looking into getting an ATC. I dont feel the need to fly an ATC now, but considering the lead time on a new suit I would likely be able to put in another 50 jumps on my Swift 3 by the time the ATC arrived. My goal is to put 100 jumps on my S3 total before switching suits.

What I am wondering is how much of a step up from the Swift the ATC is and whether I would be better suited with a Funk 3 or ATC. I dont like the gripperless design of the Funk 3 all too much, but it does seem like a bit smaller of a suit. Thanks.

Soooo, did you find what you were looking for here? Where do you jump? I ask because I too am pretty much a lonely WS pilot at a little 182 DZ in PA... All of the responses in the thread give great feedback.

In the end though, I would say to just pull the trigger on the new suit. You will learn how to fly it. you will be surprised at the performance gained. You might poop your pants! But in all seriousness it's not that difficult of a change in general. To echo Mr Jones, you will need to fly fast. Speed converts to flare, not enough speed, no flare! Not really a problem as this suit basically demands it! You can deploy any suit flying flat in full flight but once you have that larger burble you really do want to make the proper adjustments to avoid the dreaded line twists. (there going to happen anyway) All that being said, make sure you have ALL the WS modifications to your rig. The only thing I have yet to change on my set up is a semi stowless d bag. (coming soon!) It really boils down too: The rig, how you pack it, what kind of canopy is in it and how you fly to deploy. There are many little things in this short list that all require attention to detail to make the final out come what you want... A clean opening. So pull the trigger already

LeeroyJenkins

Flying fast is where your power comes from and thus safety

I disagree with this in the skydiving environment. When you're flying relative to other people I propose that you are safest when you are right in the middle of your comfortable range, both vertically and horizontally. It gives you room to maneuver in any direction if you need to - left, right, up, down, back or forward. If you're already at max forward, you're eliminating your freedom of movement in one direction, and it happens to be the one direction where you can see where you're going the best.

I'd rather be able to move forward if I need to.

I don't understand the trend toward sprinting speeds in group skydives. There is no terrain at the drop zone - you don't need to worry so much about energy conservation. The ability to flare out at any moment is not a safety consideration at 8,000 feet. Breakoff? Go ahead, pin it out, get the hell away from me.

Until then, fly at a speed that optimizes the group's range of maneuverability and allows people to use the space that we have in the sky.

I'm not a BASE jumper, and I don't know the technical details of that environment. But I've never heard of a skydiving fatality that resulted from bent knees in a wingsuit.

flying_phish

***Flying fast is where your power comes from and thus safety

I disagree with this in the skydiving environment. When you're flying relative to other people I propose that you are safest when you are right in the middle of your comfortable range, both vertically and horizontally. It gives you room to maneuver in any direction if you need to - left, right, up, down, back or forward. If you're already at max forward, you're eliminating your freedom of movement in one direction, and it happens to be the one direction where you can see where you're going the best.

I'd rather be able to move forward if I need to.

I don't understand the trend toward sprinting speeds in group skydives. There is no terrain at the drop zone - you don't need to worry so much about energy conservation. The ability to flare out at any moment is not a safety consideration at 8,000 feet. Breakoff? Go ahead, pin it out, get the hell away from me.

Until then, fly at a speed that optimizes the group's range of maneuverability and allows people to use the space that we have in the sky.

I'm not a BASE jumper, and I don't know the technical details of that environment. But I've never heard of a skydiving fatality that resulted from bent knees in a wingsuit.

You don't need to pin it on a flocking jump, but this guy jumps solo a lot it seems. He should practice flying fast on those jumps. This includes flying on their back fast. On a flocking jump everyone should still fly fast. You may disagree but it is true that power and agility come from speed. Minimal altitude loss transitions require speed. If you lose altitude transitioning to your back, you're flying wrong. Flying near stall speed is unstable and super common with new jumpers. I know a could people on ATC that like to flock at about 70 MPH and its a nightmare to flock with them in a freak.

The main thing I was arguing against is the idea that speed creates a safety margin in skydiving. I disagree with that mentality, which seems prevalent these days. But that doesn't mean I'm going to tell someone to go fly at the stall point all the time, that's crazy talk.

Speed has a lot of benefits, just as you listed. But what I've seen is a willingness to sacrifice a level of control in pursuit of speed on jumps where the speed really isn't necessary. Speed can contribute to sharper control, but speed is not the same as control until you know how to use it.

Flying fast enough to gain the benefits of speed doesn't require hitting the edge of your range. (That's not a response to anything you said, just me rambling at this point) In fact, being at the edge of your speed range often comes with drawbacks, especially during your learning progression.

20kN:

I agree with LJ: you should absolutely work on flying fast. And you should work on flying slow. Find the stall point. Work on backflying. Work on barrel rolls and instability recovery. Fly in your deployment position while maintaining stability.

Explore the whole range of the suit, and just remember that speed is not the only form of progress in wingsuiting.

flying_phish

The main thing I was arguing against is the idea that speed creates a safety margin in skydiving. I disagree with that mentality, which seems prevalent these days. But that doesn't mean I'm going to tell someone to go fly at the stall point all the time, that's crazy talk.

Speed has a lot of benefits, just as you listed. But what I've seen is a willingness to sacrifice a level of control in pursuit of speed on jumps where the speed really isn't necessary. Speed can contribute to sharper control, but speed is not the same as control until you know how to use it.

Flying fast enough to gain the benefits of speed doesn't require hitting the edge of your range. (That's not a response to anything you said, just me rambling at this point) In fact, being at the edge of your speed range often comes with drawbacks, especially during your learning progression.

20kN:

I agree with LJ: you should absolutely work on flying fast. And you should work on flying slow. Find the stall point. Work on backflying. Work on barrel rolls and instability recovery. Fly in your deployment position while maintaining stability.

Explore the whole range of the suit, and just remember that speed is not the only form of progress in wingsuiting.

Speed=control=safety

But I understand what you are saying.

100% agree.

Flying fast is a good skill to learn skydiving but it's not the important safety factor in the skydiving environment that it is in BASE.

Skydiving you should already be a safe wingsuit pilot before you start working on maximising your forward speed.

20kN

This video demonstrates the way I try to deploy. As shown in the video, the pilot has his knees forward while deploying, as opposed to keeping the leg wing fully straight as you would in fully flight. The main difference between what he does in the video and what I do is that I am not able to keep as head-high as he is. My body is closer to perpendicular with the ground, but otherwise the general body position and the way he deploys matches fairly closely what I try to do.

I dont know whether this is the best way to deploy, it's just what I have been doing so far and in the Swift it seems to work okay so far.

Bringing knees forward is a 15-20 year old braking technique. It's a pizza-head-down flying of wingsuiting
By bringing your knees forward you're deforming he suit. This brings burble and may bring instability.
You should instead try to keep your suit as straight as possible and no "rough-edges" especially the legwing (to have as clean airflow as possible).

Once you're comfortable with basic first-flight opening technique and with basic flying (I'm assuming you are), instead of bringing the knees forward you should try to flare the suit. This you do with your upper body (basically the head) and changing your AoA. This may bring a bit of arch however the suit stays straight (no rough edges!). You may want to also push on the arm wings
Here's a some good read: https://base-book.com/some-thoughts-on-wingsuit-openings.
(Not too fast, not too slow. Keep it efficient, keep it clean)

Once the canopy starts to open, many people bring slightly knees forward - the idea here is however to keep yourself symmetrical (knees together) and avoid linetwists. Bringing also hands to your chest helps.

Quote

Minimal altitude loss transitions require speed.

That's incorrect. Transitions without any loss of altitude require good technique.
Using the bad technique open wing 'throwing' transitions some people do, indeed you need the full speed to fix/remedy that. But flying transitions with correct technique, you can do them at any speed, slow or fast, near stall or ballistic forward. Having the ability to fly slow or fast while maintaining the same glide angle is also of value.

For base you do want to always fly at max speed, but that's more about having margin. In skydiving its not at all a thing you need, and flying in a comfortable range with margin on both ends, works quite well.

Though for sure flying too slow is not good, and for many people 'comfortable' is actually way too slow, max speed is not at all what you need for precise control. And it actually punishes mistakes and instability worse when (lesser experienced) people try new things at high speeds.

That said, legs should always be straight, flying slow or fast, the range in speed should come from the angle of attack, and that is all in chest/head/shoulders/arms, and not in bending legs. Bent legs distort the full body 'wing' and will lead to instability and control issues esp. when overdone. Bent legs are a technique we should leave behind in 2005.

I'm going to same route as you. I emailed Squirrel to see if this is a reasonable upgrade, and they said it's a perfect upgrade (not going too large too fast). I would advise though that Squirrel is coming out with the ATC 2 next season, so you can either wait, or lose value on your ATC v1 right away if you choose to sell it.