Swift to ATC Step-up?

mccordia

Quote

Minimal altitude loss transitions require speed.

That's incorrect. Transitions without any loss of altitude require good technique.
Using the bad technique open wing 'throwing' transitions some people do, indeed you need the full speed to fix/remedy that. But flying transitions with correct technique, you can do them at any speed, slow or fast, near stall or ballistic forward. Having the ability to fly slow or fast while maintaining the same glide angle is also of value.

For base you do want to always fly at max speed, but that's more about having margin. In skydiving its not at all a thing you need, and flying in a comfortable range with margin on both ends, works quite well.

Though for sure flying too slow is not good, and for many people 'comfortable' is actually way too slow, max speed is not at all what you need for precise control. And it actually punishes mistakes and instability worse when (lesser experienced) people try new things at high speeds.

That said, legs should always be straight, flying slow or fast, the range in speed should come from the angle of attack, and that is all in chest/head/shoulders/arms, and not in bending legs. Bent legs distort the full body 'wing' and will lead to instability and control issues esp. when overdone. Bent legs are a technique we should leave behind in 2005.

This isn't directly at you mccordia, more a general statement to everyone.

Flying fast does not mean flying pinned at max speed. Stop conflating the two.

I know a few people that like to flock in their ATCs at about 60 MPH, it is mind-numbingly slow.

We're all arguing for the same thing, really. We all want to be away from the extrema on the speed spectrum. We're just attacking opposite extrema, even though no one here is arguing to fly at either extremum.

I'm saying don't fly pinned out all the time, you're saying don't fly at stall point all the time, but we all agree that in general, faster is better than slower.

Where we seem to disagree is the "speed = control = safety" thing as an absolute in skydiving.

Right?

flying_phish

We're all arguing for the same thing, really. We all want to be away from the extrema on the speed spectrum. We're just attacking opposite extrema, even though no one here is arguing to fly at either extremum.

I'm saying don't fly pinned out all the time, you're saying don't fly at stall point all the time, but we all agree that in general, faster is better than slower.

Where we seem to disagree is the "speed = control = safety" thing as an absolute in skydiving.

Right?

I don’t even know is we disagree on that. Speed creates lift and gives finer control of the suit. I think we agree on that.

True, though the amount of control you gain with speed depends on where you are in the learning process.

I would just revise it to:

"speed + skill = control"
"control + awareness = safety"

Boom. Wingsuit Equations 2.0. Someone prove me wrong, I dare you!

I’ll take it.

skow

Bringing knees forward is a 15-20 year old braking technique. It's a pizza-head-down flying of wingsuiting

I do try to flare the suit before I deploy. I push down on the arm wings and arch. However, it doesent result in the head-high orientation shown in the video. It more or less just levels me out with the horizon and drops my airspeed.

If using your knees to brake is not the most efficient option, what is? I know that flaring will drop the forward speed, but it also seems to decrease your fall rate. Say I'm flying behind someone at the same level, catching up to them. I will need to slow my forward speed, but not change levels. If I push down on the wings, it will slow me down, but I'll also climb up and above my friend since it will decrease my decent rate. So what would be the best option for this scenario if bringing the knees forward is not the solution?

I am not super clear on flying fast in skydiving. I get it for BASE. Slow = stall = insufficient altitude to recover. However, in skydiving, if I stall my suit, I just point it head down and it recovers almost instantly as long as I remain stable. So is the main concern with flying fast in skydiving just to help prevent instability/ flat spins?

When you speak about flying the suit as fast as possible, are we talking about trying to point the suit head down and fly very steep, or are we talking about just flying flat with the horizon and trying to keep the wings as flat and efficient as possible (e.g. point the toes, keep the arms straight and the arm wing flat)? I normally do the latter, but not the former. I've tried flying the suit in a very steep dive before and it felt a lot more dangerous than flying flat. The airspeed was very high, the suit was really twitchy and I thought that if I became unstable it would be harder to regain stability at that high air speed and steep angle. When flying a bit more flat, input to the suit resulted in a more stable and predictable output. But that's just my experience so far. I havent done too many WS jumps with the suit pinned very steep the whole time though.

Using your knees to slow down during flocking is a different topic.

You fly fast (not max speed) because that is where lift and power come from. You don't flock in a slow and floaty formation, you defiantly wont flock with "the big boys" trying to fly like that. As you said if you stall you screw up the formation.

When I and 99% of people say fly fast its about horizontal speed. This varies on your angle of attack. When I tell you to fly your suit as fast as possible on solo jumps it is so you can learn to fly faster and more stable. No trying to toot my own horn but the group of buddies I learned with are not as good of pilots as myself because all they do is fly slow and floaty. You want to have the range in skill to fly your wingsuit at the min and max of its performance. That twitchiness is something you will learn to control, you are correct though the extra airspeed can be dangerous.

That speed can get ya, just ask Steve!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSkAjKVB_hM

This isn't meant to freak you out, but to learn from...

20kN

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Bringing knees forward is a 15-20 year old braking technique. It's a pizza-head-down flying of wingsuiting

I do try to flare the suit before I deploy. I push down on the arm wings and arch. However, it doesent result in the head-high orientation shown in the video. It more or less just levels me out with the horizon and drops my airspeed.


You definitely aren't flaring :) From all your posts, you should really dedicate some time with a wing suit coach. It will help you progress far better than getting many different opinions here. Even if you have to travel and spend a few days with a quality coach you will gain a lot of insights into the basics and see video of what you are doing and how to correct. It's worth every penny if you want to be a good wingsuit pilot.

Regarding the ATC:
- I upsized from a Swift 1 to an ATC, and I agree in that the ATC is a pretty easy suit to fly, if you have put enough jumps on the Swift. Exits, turns, dives and flares are really cool and easy to achieve. That said, I immediately noticed rougher deployments, where my higher speed, probably not-so good technique, and my long-snively 9-cell canopy didn't get along well together. So I would also make sure you have a docile enough canopy before upsizing.
- Regarding bending legs... this is a topic I always get contradictory advice on, and where the definitions people have in their heads seem to be all over the place. Bending legs meaning bending them down-forward, correct? To me the retro leg-bending is when people would bend them up-backwards, arching-style.
I've been told that it's a good measure in moderation, combined with dihedral wings to keep the speed/sink rate under control, while having your pitch focused on your spine (head to hips). Angle of attack is a very confusing concept depending on who uses it and how. To my understanding, keeping your suit straight doesn't guarantee any decent angle of attack, if e.g. your pitch is too flat and you are arching a bit. I understand angle of attack as the angle between your spine and where you are flying to, regardless of speed. Also I perceive the leg-bending (with moderation :-) ) to be more aligned with freefly angle-flying, where you put your body in a configuration from which it's always ready to "accelerate" with ease.

kat00

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Bringing knees forward is a 15-20 year old braking technique. It's a pizza-head-down flying of wingsuiting

I do try to flare the suit before I deploy. I push down on the arm wings and arch. However, it doesent result in the head-high orientation shown in the video. It more or less just levels me out with the horizon and drops my airspeed.


You definitely aren't flaring :) From all your posts, you should really dedicate some time with a wing suit coach. It will help you progress far better than getting many different opinions here. Even if you have to travel and spend a few days with a quality coach you will gain a lot of insights into the basics and see video of what you are doing and how to correct. It's worth every penny if you want to be a good wingsuit pilot.

Well, what I do is push down on the arm wings, which does change the airspeed for sure. It's hard to tell how it effects the angle of attack without having someone film me though. I have received coaching in the past and intend to get more in the future. But professional WS coaching is not easily available around my parts and requires extensive travel, so it only happens when I am on vacation. When I am at home, I try to jump with more experienced jumpers when possible and learn as much as possible from all available sources.

timski

That speed can get ya, just ask Steve!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GSkAjKVB_hM

This isn't meant to freak you out, but to learn from...

Well, it's not clear what happened so I am not sure what the lesson is other than it's possible to get stuck in a spin (which I already knew). I've watched it several times but it's not clear what caused the instability. I am aware of the risks of becoming unstable near pull altitude, and so when I get close to pull time I try not to execute any maneuver that increases my risk of getting stuck in a spin. I try to practice that stuff up higher.

20kN

******
I do try to flare the suit before I deploy. I push down on the arm wings and arch. However, it doesent result in the head-high orientation shown in the video. It more or less just levels me out with the horizon and drops my airspeed.

You definitely aren't flaring :)

Well, what I do is push down on the arm wings, which does change the airspeed for sure.

From what you say, I'm pretty sure you actually are flaring (or at last trying to).

Keep in mind that with Swift you will not get straight head-up flare that you see in the videos. You may get a little bit of that, but this will actually need a steep dive before flaring - just like with canopy flying, the more speed you have (e.g. using fronts) the more power you have and the more up you can go during flare (however with canopies you don't want to do that, at least near the ground).

So the idea is the same as with your canopy - change your AoA which will level your flight and slow you down. (later you can also try to dive and gain speed - it's super fun :) )

20kN

It's hard to tell how it effects the angle of attack without having someone film me though.

Are you talking about the angle with respect to horizon? This is something totally different than AoA (which to my knowledge is impossible to film outside of laboratory).

Anyway, seems to me that you are on a right track. Just keep you suit straight (to have it as efficient as possible) and practice those flares.

Remember that flaring is quite slow process which takes at least few seconds. So don't change your position to rapidly (it's the same as yanking too much on you rears - this will stall the canopy / suit immediately), but very slowly and gradually change your position.

Also when not-pitching - practice gaining some speed before flares- for me it makes it more stable.

As for when to pitch - I like to flare as much as possible and pitch couple seconds after that, when I start to dive again. This is because of the fact that at the peak of the flare you may have some burble (because you still have some airspeed).
Some people also pitch before reaching the peak of the flare. You can check also the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zZ-jjTqcgU