Ban period?

obelixtim

I'm not a great believer in bans, long ones just make the jumper uncurrent and more likely to screw up again.

But your next 5 jumps would be hop and pops from minimum altitude. No higher than 4 grand anyway.

That'll learn ya.

Sir I really really wish you were there.

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I never been a situation like this before. I didn't expect that the door would close again.

Yes, I get it. You're inexperienced. You didn't know what was going on and were overwhelmed. You made a bad decision.

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All that in my mind was that I need to go as quickly as possible cause there were many others waiting behind me.

Yeah--I know that pressure, BUT that is NEVER a good reason to go out, if you haven't made sure it's safe for you to do so.

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I did not look down. I pulled at 5k and reached holding area at 3k.

Do you see how this is a huge problem though?! I'm not sure you quite GOT it. It seems you are just wanting the 2 weeks to be over and get back to jumping. Do you realize you made a dangerous mistake? Are you taking actions to prevent that from happening in the future?

BTW: You pulled at 5k. Was it always your intention to pull that high, or did you notice that you were the only one out and not in a good spot, and then decided in freefall to change your pull altitude?
If it was always your intention to pull at 5k, did you let the other jumpers know before and clear it with them?
I get the feeling you are taking these things not quite as seriously as you probably should.

5K was as planned.
I wasn't aware that I was the only one out there until I deployed.
I fully understand how serious it was. I could not only kill myself but probably everybody on the plane.

swotcox

5K was as planned.
I wasn't aware that I was the only one out there until I deployed.
I fully understand how serious it was. I could not only kill myself but probably everybody on the plane.

How can you not be aware that other people have or have not jumped? I am not trying to be mean but you seem to have no clue as to how bad your decisions are. You said this is a new dz? I am very suspicious that you have been in trouble for bad decisions before at your old dz. I would bet on that and yet here you are in trouble again. There are reasons for lights on a plane for telling jumpers when it is safe to jump. How many jumps do you have and be honest. The way you have responded to a few posters is very confrontational and i get the idea that you think you know everything and you don,t. once again i am not trying to be mean i just don,t want to read another fatality report because of someone,s arrogance.

I was doing belly so how could I know if others behind me have jumped or not?
Is there any others than gowlerk, who's making a wild guess just like you,that I replied confrontationally?

it does not matter if you are belly flying or any other flying you should know what is going on in the plane. Even on my first jump i was aware of everything going on around me in the plane. you think i am not trying to help? i am most certainly trying to keep you alive. and you have not answered my questions how many jumps and why did you have to go to another dz? like i said in my last post i am not trying to be mean. be honest and answer my questions.

I'm a novice only have 28 jumps.
I don't live in the US so I actually don't have a home DZ.
Why you keep assming that I'v done something wrong in the past?
Do I have to jump at one place forever?

skyderrill66

it does not matter if you are belly flying or any other flying you should know what is going on in the plane. Even on my first jump i was aware of everything going on around me in the plane. you think i am not trying to help? i am most certainly trying to keep you alive. and you have not answered my questions how many jumps and why did you have to go to another dz? like i said in my last post i am not trying to be mean. be honest and answer my questions.

While your questions are valid. I gotta call BS on you knowing what was going on during your first jump. There is litterally no way for you to know if people left after you. Don’t argue against a point OP didn’t make. Stick to the questions.

To Op

There is no point in arguing or debating with anyone here. You screwed up, take your two week punishment, don’t do it again, it’s that simple. Also I know your new but always check the spot before you leave.

your right there is no way of knowing who or if anyone jumped after i jumped. I am not trying to pick on the op just trying to keep him alive.
Sorry if i made it seem if i am a know it all and knew everything that happened in the plane just that i could tell you if anybody jumped before me is all. so for that i am sorry.

Thank you very much! I definitely will not let that happen again.

Thank you for your PM.
Anyone who have jumped more than me is an expert to me.
And I am willing to take your advice.
Thanks again.
Blue Skies and hot dives

swotcox

All that in my mind was that I need to go as quickly as possible cause there were many others waiting behind me.
I did not look down.

Drop that mentality. It does not matter if the entire planet is behind you waiting to get out. If you have not verified it's safe, you dont get out, no matter who is telling you to (unless it's the pilot). Even if the green is on and you have verified it's clear, you can still hold on a bit if you think something is wrong.

I once held the load a bit because I brushed my container along a bench while getting into place. I was afriad I dislodged my pin so I asked someone for a pin check. Everyone was giving me shit, even one instructor. 'geez, why did he have to wait until it's time to get out to get a check. what a loser'. F**k them. They are not the ones who have to deal with a potentially life ending high speed malfunction just because someone was in a rush. Take your time and never get out if you are not 100% you're good. The plane can always go around.

swotcox

I was doing belly so how could I know if others behind me have jumped or not?
Is there any others than gowlerk, who's making a wild guess just like you,that I replied confrontationally?

I don't have any opinion on what the appropriate "ban period" should be. I don't necessarily even see a need for a ban. What I do see is you coming here and asking a bunch of us our opinions. But not being there, not knowing you, only hearing your side of the story, and a general lack of information and context make our opinions completely irrelevant.

Seriously, this forum is not a place for dealing with this. You may or may not have been overly disciplined. Bringing it here makes me question your ability to learn from your error and move on. Is is confrontational? I'm not sure. But it's likely that someone from your DZ is reading this thread and may or may not bring it to the attention of the person whose decision you are questioning. I guarantee that this will do nothing to improve your reputation there.

gowlerk

What I do see is you coming here and asking a bunch of us our opinions. But not being there, not knowing you, only hearing your side of the story, and a general lack of information and context make our opinions completely irrelevant.

You were not there, not knowing me, but you're pretty sure that I have exhibited bad judgement in the past.
WOW!

I was debating sending this to you in a private message, but I'll post it here in the hopes other can see.

When you have issues like this and seek advice, the responses from this community will generally be more helpful and constructive if you Fill in your Profile. The same goes for newer jumpers or 10,000+ career skydivers.

swotcox

***What I do see is you coming here and asking a bunch of us our opinions. But not being there, not knowing you, only hearing your side of the story, and a general lack of information and context make our opinions completely irrelevant.

You were not there, not knowing me, but you're pretty sure that I have exhibited bad judgement in the past.
WOW!

Like I said. There is no point. Stop replying.

swotcox

***What I do see is you coming here and asking a bunch of us our opinions. But not being there, not knowing you, only hearing your side of the story, and a general lack of information and context make our opinions completely irrelevant.

You were not there, not knowing me, but you're pretty sure that I have exhibited bad judgement in the past.
WOW!

He's judging by what he sees here. You typed a lot of I didn't know and I thought in your previous posts. also your posts almost seems like you want to make it out to be not your fault. A lot of excuses when you know the rules (dropzone and FAA rules) with that being said everyone here has accidentally done something dumb and/or dangerous while jumping. The ones that own up to it usually learn from it and move on. Others try to find a way to make it not completely their fault to keep their ego up. That attitude there doesn't come from jumping and they don't learn much.

Heres an example Im sitting at a red light with my truck. Someone texting rear ended me with their car. They try to say the damage wouldn't have been so bad in my hitch didn't punch a hole in the radiator, when it wouldn't have been there in the first place if they were paying attention and stopped in time. See how that works? They're indirectly blaming me for having my hitch on. Later they will be talking with their friends saying it wasn't that bad except he had his hitch on and that really tore my car up. They made a big mistake and made it look smaller in their mind so it's not a big deal. If it's not a big deal they don't have much incentive to learn from it.

In your case from what I've seen written, you have (1) disregarded what was below you before you jumped (2) miscommunicated the jump lights and (3) miscommunicated a signal to close the door Instead of just owning up to it and asking for advice on how to be better next time, you only seem interested in knowing how long your punishment should "really" last, then you were defending your bad decisions trying to save face, and in the post I quoted you are "poking the bear" which has no way of helping you improve your ability.

Try not to see this as an attack but as an outside person looking in. I'm trying to help but the your attitude or way of thinking and interpreting thing need to change if you want to survive. Slow down your thought process and take time to go through what happened one second at a time. You know what you were thinking at the time but do you know why? Was there something else you should have been thinking about or doing? What were you feeling at that time? What can I do differently next time I'm in a similar situation? I'm not asking you to answer this to me, just for yourself. You are your worse enemy but it helps to learn as much as you can about yourself. It's hard to look at ones own faults and call them what they are. Knowing them is a small part of the battle

Basically if you complain at all about something on DZ.com you might get pegged as a complainer. If you then try to defend yourself... jeez, you're pretty defensive, like you're some kind of jerk. If you then say you're not a jerk.... well, only some kind of jerk would be such a defensive jerk. Hard to win. Sometimes you just have to shut up and take it.

As for the jumping-with-no-green-after-a-red:
I'd expect for that kind of mistake just to get a talking to. Oops, you screwed up, you learned. At worst, stand down for a day.

I personally wouldn't expect a couple week ban unless you were deliberately screwing around and intentionally totally disregarding DZ rules. But every DZ is diffferent. [shrug]

I can understand how it happened, with all the "green light pressure" at some DZ's. You got a bit flustered, made a bad assumption, and then another signal (the guy pointing at the door) got interpreted in a way that matched your current plan ('hey he's pointing for me to get the hell out').

Sometimes pilots do things wrong with the lights too, or go red on the light with no notice of jumprun, or go on jump run at a different altitude than planned, or go red to green in moments, leading to all sorts of scrambles for the jumpers. Pilots aren't always perfect either.

One friend was in a Caravan when the pilot accidentally turned the green light on at 1500'. My friend whipped the door open and jumped. I think more to have fun than actually believing it to be an emergency. He was under a Parafoil so he didn't mind.

One thing that should have clued you in, was that even as you said, the light went from green to red for NINETY SECONDS.... which might have you wondering whether the spot would actually still be ok afterwards. It still worked out for you to get back, but a little less rush at the door would have made sense.

As for clouds, that's another issue and varies by DZ too.

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As for clouds, that's another issue and varies by DZ too.

Yes, as far as I know that is a specific issue in the USA, where cloud clearance for skydiving falls under the FAA regulations for airplane cloud clearance under Visual Flight Rules. So, while there may be some DZs in the US who do not completely comply with this rule, they can get in deep trouble and be shut down by the FAA (or the pilot can loose his license)
In other countries this does not seem to be the same, and you can find many YouTube videos of jumpers enjoying flying relative to clouds (it's even a recommended training practice to be able to fly relative to a--more or less--stationary object at altitude)

But in the US, you have to be really careful with that. Since it can get the pilot and DZO in trouble, they can get really serious about it!

DZ and I we have talked. I've already learned from it.
In THIS inccident it's 100% my fault.
I don't defend myself unless it's not true.
And yes, the main interest is how long my punishment should "really" last and I did get some answers.

WAIT A SECOND, YOU HAVE 28 JUMPS AND YOU ARE TAKING ISSUE WITH GETTING GROUNDED.

man, that is grounds for some serious hazing.

My second or third jump off student status back in the 90"s, I made a downwind landing without declaring it before I got into the plane.

I got dressed down by my instructors, and the next jump I had to make in my underwear.

pchapman

I can understand how it happened, with all the "green light pressure" at some DZ's. You got a bit flustered, made a bad assumption, and then another signal (the guy pointing at the door) got interpreted in a way that matched your current plan ('hey he's pointing for me to get the hell out').

Sometimes pilots do things wrong with the lights too, or go red on the light with no notice of jumprun, or go on jump run at a different altitude than planned, or go red to green in moments, leading to all sorts of scrambles for the jumpers. Pilots aren't always perfect either.

Indeed. I was on a low pass load yesterday with nine other people; five experienced jumpers, four doing a B license canopy course, and me in a wingsuit at the back. Red light goes on, door opens, red light goes off, and seven people jump out before I could ask the pilot why there's no green light. Everyone assumed that the light was broken. In reality, the pilot just didn't move the switch to the correct position. Only three people exited with the green light on.

I fully expected to have a conversation about this with the pilot, DZM, and all jumpers on the load. To my surprise, no one said anything at all on the ground.

It wasn't as if people didn't notice either. As I was zipping up my wingsuit, I heard those by the door saying that the green light was off, and then jumping out anyway. People seem perfectly happy interpreting the lack of a green light once the red goes out as a broken bulb or pilot error than as a command to stay in the plane. This was also the first load of the day, so I guess the lack of evidence that the bulb works was also a contributing factor. I would say it's classical conditioning of red-green-jump, red-green-jump, done over hundreds/thousands of skydives, but it seems to affect very experienced, as some on my load were, and newer jumpers alike. Furthermore, once the first person goes, the next one is less likely to stop and think.

Mistakes were made, fortunately no real harm done, good lesson for the future not to fall prey to wishful thinking.

mxk

***I can understand how it happened, with all the "green light pressure" at some DZ's. You got a bit flustered, made a bad assumption, and then another signal (the guy pointing at the door) got interpreted in a way that matched your current plan ('hey he's pointing for me to get the hell out').

Sometimes pilots do things wrong with the lights too, or go red on the light with no notice of jumprun, or go on jump run at a different altitude than planned, or go red to green in moments, leading to all sorts of scrambles for the jumpers. Pilots aren't always perfect either.

Indeed. I was on a low pass load yesterday with nine other people; five experienced jumpers, four doing a B license canopy course, and me in a wingsuit at the back. Red light goes on, door opens, red light goes off, and seven people jump out before I could ask the pilot why there's no green light. Everyone assumed that the light was broken. In reality, the pilot just didn't move the switch to the correct position. Only three people exited with the green light on.

I fully expected to have a conversation about this with the pilot, DZM, and all jumpers on the load. To my surprise, no one said anything at all on the ground.

It wasn't as if people didn't notice either. As I was zipping up my wingsuit, I heard those by the door saying that the green light was off, and then jumping out anyway. People seem perfectly happy interpreting the lack of a green light once the red goes out as a broken bulb or pilot error than as a command to stay in the plane. This was also the first load of the day, so I guess the lack of evidence that the bulb works was also a contributing factor. I would say it's classical conditioning of red-green-jump, red-green-jump, done over hundreds/thousands of skydives, but it seems to affect very experienced, as some on my load were, and newer jumpers alike. Furthermore, once the first person goes, the next one is less likely to stop and think.

Mistakes were made, fortunately no real harm done, good lesson for the future not to fall prey to wishful thinking.

This probaply doesnt apply to this particular jump but it's good idea to remember that DZ's might have differing rules to lights in general. For example some places I jump you are allowed to leave the plane with red off (before green comes on) if youre happy with the spot. In the same place it's also OK to leave after green has turned off if you're happy with the spot and red light is not on yet.

Then again in some places you get yelled at if you start setting your group on the door before green comes on even if you're not planning to leave before green...

The point being, rules and best practices vary between places...

swotcox

***What I do see is you coming here and asking a bunch of us our opinions. But not being there, not knowing you, only hearing your side of the story, and a general lack of information and context make our opinions completely irrelevant.

You were not there, not knowing me, but you're pretty sure that I have exhibited bad judgement in the past.
WOW!I can guarantee you've exhibited bad judgement before. You are coming here to solicit support against the person/persons who have disciplined you at your home DZ. That speaks volumes about your judgement. You have a lot to learn about getting along in the culture; this one and/or any other.

raff

******What I do see is you coming here and asking a bunch of us our opinions. But not being there, not knowing you, only hearing your side of the story, and a general lack of information and context make our opinions completely irrelevant.

You were not there, not knowing me, but you're pretty sure that I have exhibited bad judgement in the past.
WOW!I can guarantee you've exhibited bad judgement before. You are coming here to solicit support against the person/persons who have disciplined you at your home DZ. That speaks volumes about your judgement. You have a lot to learn about getting along in the culture; this one and/or any other.

This website does not accurately represent the culture of skydiving.