Should D license requirements be changed?

With the different areas that skydivers can go into these days, perhaps the definition of an "expert" skydiver should be changed. For example, a jumper who wants to swoop may have difficulty meeting the accuracy requirements for a D license, but if he or she can consistently land a parachute at 50 mph, isn't that a demonstration of expert skill? Or take CReW. I know many D licensed jumpers who have never docked under canopy and never will. Doesn't a CReW four stack demonstrate expert skill? The particular requirement that is hanging me up is the night jump. Does that actually demonstrate skill, or does it merely demonstrate good vision? Is a wing suit flyer who has never done a night jump more skilled than a similiarly qualified jumper who has done a night jump but never done a wing suit jump? What do you think?

I would have to say that the wingsuit flyer that flys his wingsuit on a night jump, deploys his VX 79, docks with another canopy, breaks free and does a 270 approach and lands in the center of the peas is an expert!!!!!!

perhaps you should think off just changing expert to experienced ?

I think the only D license requirement that should be omitted is the needless 'night jumps' requirement.



Jen

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I think the only D license requirement that should be omitted is the needless 'night jumps' requirement.



Jen

But then you wouldn't really be an 'expert' if you weren't 'qualified' to jump for 1/2 of the day.

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With the different areas that skydivers can go into these days, perhaps the definition of an "expert" skydiver should be changed. For example, a jumper who wants to swoop may have difficulty meeting the accuracy requirements for a D license, but if he or she can consistently land a parachute at 50 mph, isn't that a demonstration of expert skill?

There are no accuracy requirements for a D license. In fact the only additional requirements for a D license are 500 jumps and 2 night jumps. This of course assumes one has a C license already.

The reality is the C license is the hard one to get nowadays, particularly the accuracy requirements. A C license is very much a generalist license and over specializing (say swooping or birdman) before 200 jumps not particularly wise.

As for night jumps good vision is not the point. Although a lot of people would agree with you.

You do have a point that possible additional certifications in various disciplines might be a good idea. But they should be a hell of a lot tougher than any of the current license requirements as they now stand, which are pretty damn easy. Say an RW might include a successful 3 point 36 way, 6 rounds of 4-way at an average of 10 points, in time, demonstrated from all 4 slots. 6 rounds of 8-way at an average of 6 points, in time, demonstrated from all 8 slots.

I would keep accuracy due to the following:
If for eaxample an emergency situation requires you to exit over a covered area (be it a town or a forest) you might find a small place to land rather than a good swoop cicuit.

All the requirements are aimed at the "normal/standard" skydive. Given this interpretation you are right that probably the night jump requirement should be skipped.

M.

NO I don't think the night jumps should be omitted. Quit whining about the night jumps and just do them. Night jumps aren't that hard.

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I think the only D license requirement that should be omitted is the needless 'night jumps' requirement.

Jen

In the last 21 years, I've heard stuff like that many times.

Licence requirements that I had to complete and that have since been removed include water jumps, CRW dock 3 times on a single dive, CRW be docked 3 times on a single dive, steer a 4 stack, land top and bottom of a 4 stack.

Some that remain are night jumps, dock 5th or higher on an 8 way, be in a 16 way (Not in the base) and a couple of others like number of jumps etc.

Although these are not USPA requirements, they are PASA requirements.

The number of times I've been in a Tandem rotation, hit an ATC hold and got out... a bit after sunset.. is lots.

Why can't people just do what's asked. The white lines on the road are for all the drivers. Why can't skydiving requirements be the same?

I believe that D licence requirements should be bloody hard to get. That way when someone has a D, you know its worth something.

t

Quit whining about the night jumps and just do them.

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Really!


What IS the hang up so many people seem to have about jumping at night?

YA know that you can get a waiver if you have a valid reason not to do the night jumps/

I believe that D licence requirements should be bloody hard to get. That way when someone has a D, you know its worth something.

***

I agree, and feel the same way about a PRO rating.

I know a lot of "Pencil Pro's" that can't spot, pack, or land in FOOTBALL field 10 times in row!


A "D" license is like a Bachelors Degree...

It doesn't mean that you 'know' everything, but that you have the dedication and perseverance to complete some 'basic' requirements...and hopefully the knowledge to know where to go and what to do to BECOME an 'Expert' in one or more given disciplines of the sport.

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YA know that you can get a waiver if you have a valid reason not to do the night jumps/

Yes I know...I just can't think of a 'valid' reason other than being a vampire and having 'other' commitments at night.

It's kinda like the kid that wants mommy to write an excuse to get outta gym class cause they don't wanna sweat!

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land top and bottom of a 4 stack

Would you do that with todays canopies?

Although I totally agree with some CRW experience. As a matter of fact since a few years you need to do 5 CRW jumps for your C here in The Netherlands.

I did do 2 night jumps, but I'm pretty nightblind. The first nightjump I did was a tandem (yeah I know, no rules against it here though) to see if I could SEE, the next I did a solo, and landed 10 km out (mostly because of way too much wind). Did i learn anything from that? Yeah, to be careful if it's dusk, and I already knew that

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Would you do that with todays canopies?

That was done on 220 sq ft 7 cells, 5000ft AMSL. I KNOW it's possible on 280 Skymasters. No one is saying do it on Velocity 93's.

It was pulled though for the evolution canopies have gone through, and some people's inapropriate choice of gear, much like the water jump requirement.

t

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For example, a jumper who wants to swoop may have difficulty meeting the accuracy requirements for a D license

You really gotta be kidding with this Right? All the swoopers I know have excellent accuracy skills. Ya gotta be accurate to hit those gates consistently.

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For example, a jumper who wants to swoop may have difficulty meeting the accuracy requirements for a D license

You really gotta be kidding with this Right? All the swoopers I know have excellent accuracy skills. Ya gotta be accurate to hit those gates consistently.

Not to mention...land in a Shark Cage!

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...Would you do that with todays canopies?

Why sure! A Lightening and a Triathlon come to mind easily...what in the world are YOU thinking?

As a reference, the Canadian requirements are stated here, in section 6.1

http://www.cspa.ca/forms/PIM1.pdf

I would say that someone who can land a parachute at 50 mph consistently, but can't shut it down in a 10 meter circle is an accident waiting to happen.

Once again, the night jump is brought up. If you don't want to do them, don't get a D license.

What's the hang up with night jumps? Is it fear, or is it that at some of the smaller DZs they are hard to organize? I was terrified on my night jumps, but they were also two of the most memorable jumps I have ever done.

Already have my D, did my 2 night jumps, and will NEVER do another night jump.

What's the issue with them? I can ensure that I will not be on a plane doing a jump where I will leave the plane after dusk or at night. Not only that, but it's an additional level of risk that I choose not to take on any future jumps.

For my night jumps, I did one at Davis and one at home - Sky Knights. Both times, I had someone in the plane with me doing their best to "pass their calm" on to me while I was as nervous as a cat on a hot tin roof. Don't like night jumps. Don't like the lack of visibility. Don't like not being able to see other jumpers in the air as well as when it's brighter out (I want to have a good "feel" for what another jumper is doing when I'm in the air with them). Don't like not being able to see the ground very well...if at all.

My personal thought on night jumps is that they should be moved to the PRO rating requirements so that a person doing demos can take night jumps.

I've made three night jumps and will probably do it again, but...

The biggest fear I have is a cutaway and losing my main. It would be challenging enough to try to get my wife to agree to the cost of replacing my freebag. Losing the main would likely put me out of the sport for good.

I believe the real issue is not the requirements for a "D" license, but the requirement that one hold a "D" in order to qualify for various other ratings. One can learn to competently instruct and jumpmaster students without ever having jumped at night, or having ever landed within 200' of a target. Likewise, a jumper who has minimal RW skills can develop an accuracy skill set worthy of a PRO rating. Etc.

Requiring a "D" license before one may attempt to earn these ratings is like requiring the candidate to place a piece of cheese in his shoe. It is utterly irrelevant to the task at hand. I suspect the exchange of money plays a strong role in the decision to require a "D".

Cheers,
Jon S.

Bill Burk once tole me that an experianced skydiver is someone that knows what a blast handle is good for ;)

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One can learn to competently instruct and jumpmaster students without ever having jumped at night, or having ever landed within 200' of a target.

I have to disagree with this statement. As a skydiving instructor, you should be able to teach all aspects of the sport, the first jump course, basic RW, advanced RW, canopy control and accuracy, night jumps, water training, and even gear inspections and packing.

I know instructors that have a hard time landing in the main landing areas, cannot even pack their own parachute, or cannot even hook up a new main.

The only real reason to have a D license is to become an instructor or get a Pro rating. I believe it should be a lot tougher to get than it is.

Course, I think a B license is not enough for a coach rating either, so take my opinion as you will.