BSR proposal for canopy patterns

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I can see your proposal working on larger DZ's or boogies , I don't think you need the same rules for the Smaller Cesna DZ's where 4 people might be in the air at one time.

The people that worry me the most are the ones that normally jump at small DZs, then show up at multi-turbine boogies. They're used to having the sky to themselves and often fly that way even when there's 20 other canopies in the sky with them.

I do not support this BSR proposal.

I agree that things need to be done, but another set of non-enforceable rules to address problems created outside "normal" DZ operations will not help.

Requiring more of our instructors in this sport WILL have a marked impact.

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I think we saw too many of our friends die.
I'd prefer less politics, less fatalities and more jumping. This BSR is one way to make that happen. It's not the only way, but it is one way that has a good chance of being effective at reducing the number of canopy collision fatalities.

This is very emotional, but does not explain why we need to make BSR out of this? Low pull BSR was put in place because people were doing intentional low pulls. I'm sure no one were intentionally involved in those canopy collisions.

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People are intentionally doing 270s (and more) into standard traffic patterns. I've been hit by such an individual. By pure luck, I am still here to tell you about it. Others have not been so lucky.

"I do not support this BSR proposal.

I agree that things need to be done, but another set of non-enforceable rules to address problems created outside "normal" DZ operations will not help."


I agree with JP here. Even if you institue this rule do you honestly think that it will fix th eroot cause of the problem? The cause of the problem is people making stupid decisions at inopportune times.

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But of course it's just much easier to attempt and regulate the problem away, without looking at what the root of the problem really is. Not just the results of it.

And it is even easier to complain about those that are trying to do something without offering a better suggestion.

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without looking at what the root of the problem really is.

Root Cause??
How about Humans make mistakes. Speed Magnifies these mistakes. Setting guidelines and rules in place so that the effect of the Bad Decision can be minimized is a good thing.

Bio for Flip Colmer

Skydiving Experience

3683 Skydives. 70+ Hours of FreeFall. First Jump: October 1976. Last Jump: February 2006. Retired successfully alive.

Have held Static Line I/JM, AFF I/JM/Evaluator and Tandem Master ratings.

Started and operated Napoleon Skydiving Center, Napoleon, MI from 1991 to 1992.

Participated in 357, 300, 246, 200, 120 and 100 person world records. Got hurt two days prior to the 400 way. Missed that one.

Last parachute flown was a Stiletto 135 and I always wore a Cypres. Max wing loading was 210 pounds under a Stiletto 120.

Preferred not to ever land via a ‘standard’ landing pattern, but did when I was told to.

I’m including my aviation experience as there is much to be learned from the airplane world. I was able to bring to the discussion knowledge and experience that normally would not get to the table.

Aviation Experience

Total Flying Time: 14,000+ hours. First Flight: October 1975.

Employed by Northwest Airlines, Inc. since April 1989. Currently flying as Airbus 319/320 Captain. Have flown DC-9, Boeing 727 and Airbus 320 at NWA.

From August 1978 until December 1998, United States Naval Aviator having flown F/A18 Hornet and A-7E Corsair in aircraft carrier operations. 360 Aircraft Carrier arrested landings. Flew T-34C Mentor, T-2C Buckeye and TA-4J Skyhawk in training operations including 1000 hours as instructor pilot in Formation Flying, Departure and Spin Training, Air to Air Gunnery, Low Level Flying and Instrument Flying.

Have flown in skydiving formation flights C-182, C-206, Queen Air, King Air, Twin Otter, Skyvan, DC-3 and Caribou.

Helped coordinate aircraft for many skydiving world record attempts involving 12-14 aircraft, as well as liaison with Royal Thai Air Force for World Team.

Largest Formation Flight to date: 30 aircraft.

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If given the choice of landing in trees, a tight back yard, or a nice open area that's designated for HP landings, I'd have trouble not choosing the open area. Maybe I'd hook it just to stay within the rules.

if you can spot to keep yourself out of the trees you can spot to keep yourself out of the HP area.

If you don't know how to spot (god knows, these days alot of peeps don't) it really isn't that hard. ask somone to teach you the math behind it. it is very simple. (don't go on green, check your spot if you don't want to land there)

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3683 Skydives. 70+ Hours of FreeFall.

68 seconds per jump average.
I didn't know jumping from 14K was typical 20 to 30 years ago.

anyway - thanks for doing this - you and the rest


In many cases, having a set of BSRs (which guide training curriculum, and students have to learn the BSRs to pass the licensing tests) can help. And won't hurt. It might also give the S&TAs and DZOs that agree, additional justification to go out and enforce safe landing practices.

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>Till pilots start taking canopy flight, and education, seriously we'll have this problem.

Bob Holler took canopy flight (and education) seriously. He was killed by someone who did not, and could not be talked to. Had Danny been warned and/or grounded because of his careless pattern work, Bob would be alive today.

Will it save everyone who has a canopy control problem? Most likely no. Will it save some of the people out there who are hit and killed by other pilots? Most likely yes.

And, as I said, Bob's incident would almost definitely be one of 2 that would have been prevented with this BSR.

That, as unfortuate as it may be, still doesn't address the majority of the problem.

Blues,
Ian

I strongly believe in education to prevent people from killing themselves.

I believe in rules to prevent them from killing other people.

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What would one do if non-HPL jumpers are forced to land in the HPL area due to the spot or some other situation?

If a jumper lands on an airport runway with a powered aircraft on final, the airplane pilot does a go-around and waits for a clear runway. Sure, he may be inconvenienced, but that's the procedure, and everyone understands that it exists in the interest of safety. The jumper probably will get talked to, to see if a genuine emergency forced his runway landing. If there was no emergency, he gets his ass chewed, and learns a lesson.

Obviously, a canopy pilot can not add power and make another trip around the pattern. He can, however, abort his HP landing and make a straight-in approach if a non-HP landing is taking place in the HP area. The non-HP jumper gets talked to about the rules, and the HP jumper goes up for another shot at his swoop. Everyone has a beer at the end of the day, and no one gets killed.

Jumpers have shared airspace with other users for a long time. Most of these operate in performance envelopes that are far different from those of our parachutes. The fact that we now have parachutes and landing styles that are different from each other simply means more airspace divisions and more rules. Parachutes don't own the sky. Neither do ultralights, balloons, or rotor craft. The same is true for swoopers and straight-inners.

The BSR proposals are great. We need to kick them around with everyone's input until we have a good useable set of rules that give everyone room to operate while allowing safe operation. If we leave it to the feds, we'll all be wearing beacons and transponders.

Kevin

What would feelings be if swoopers were exclusively killing other swoopers instead of people using a standard pattern?

Agreed!

Pitt Meadows has already set a side a separate landing area for high performance landings.

Hopefully this will get people to think a minute or two ahead of their parachutes.

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I believe stronger education policies will go far further than regulation

I completely agree. How do you propose we accomplish this?

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How exactly are these guidelines going to remove mistakes? That's just something you cannot regulate away. People will still make the same mistakes in different areas.

And that will save lives.
Make a mistake over the Swoop area with less traffic and fewer slow canopies in your way.. Less likely to kill someone else because you are not in the same place as the majority of canopy traffic.

Humans will always make mistakes. we cant save everyone but we can have rules in place that make it safer for most.

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this BSR while moving in the right direction for reducing fatalities, will do NOTHING AT ALL to reduce the BULK of the canopy collision fatalities.

I agree no matter what we do, People will still make mistakes and die But in the first part of your statement.. You say "this BSR while moving in the right direction for reducing fatalities"..
OK.. It sounds like a good place to start.

I dont think anyone sees this as the end all be all solution to the problem. But it is a good place to start.

The canopy Pilots that keep mentioning "Better Education". I ask again.. OK.. How do we get there?

(BTW.. Ian I know what you are doing and know that you are doing more than anyone else I have seen on this front ... That is why I am asking these question. I think you have many answers but here are allot of people that are not seeing that.)

This group (the Original Posters) have presented a well thought out very specific proposal for discussion. A generic answer of Better Education and we are all part of the problem (Not your words but what I have heard from other that oppose any rules regarding HPL`s) is great.. But how do we get there?

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me how this BSR would have prevented over 84% of the fatalities worldwide related to canopy collisions

Statistics can be manipulated to show what ever you want.

In the past 6 months there have been 3 incidents involving Swoopers coming into the main landing area and encountering traffic resulting in 4 deaths. Spin the numbers however you want but if the proposed BSRs were followed, Atleast 3 possibly 4 would be alive today.

Not just Danny and Bob but also the 2 Accidents at the Holiday Boogie.

No matter how much education and Training you give someone, Humans still make mistakes. Separating High Perfaomance landings from Standard landing patterns WILL reduce Fatalities related to canopy collisions.

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And it is even easier to complain about those that are trying to do something without offering a better suggestion.

We have.

Education. And demanding a higher standard from instructors.

Know why canopy control courses are all the rage right now? Because the standard has slipped, and the industry has let it.

Instructors used to be the teachers, at least one of those who has signed this BSR proposal is/was that kind of instructor. I know because he trained me.

Making a rule that isn't enforced now, isn't going to be the fix. a rule doesn't prevent people from doing something, it just means they broke a rule when they did it.

If S&TA's, DZO's, DZM's, and instructors would participate, educate, and disciplined more, without worrying that they might upset someone....well we wouldn't be talking about this.

If someone had grounded Danny the first time he did something like this......

If someone had cared enough to talk to jumpers invited to a massive boogie first....

Let DZ's set their policies.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

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Aircraft flight patterns were devised to keep pilots from crashing into each
other while landing on the same runway, even when radio services are not
available. These FAR rules have worked well for a century and been modified
as technology has advanced the capabilities of aircraft.

Uncontroled airports don't see the same sort volume as we see in DZ landing areas.

Never in the modern day would you see 80 aircraft invited to land on the same runway at the same time without some sort of positive control system, ore pre-planning.

We do see this in skydiving ESPECIALY at mega-boogies.

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And it is even easier to complain about those that are trying to do something without offering a better suggestion.

We have.

Education. And demanding a higher standard from instructors.

That's a bit fuzzy as a solution, isn't it?

Rules won't prevent people from making mistakes, esp ones that involve judgement. So at that point you look at changing the environment.

This is becoming one of the best reasons to not downsize. Anyone on a swooping mission is going to get down before I do.

Don't buy into the myth that swoopers are the problem.

Non standard patterns, too many people into small landing areas, poor judgement and training, lack of supervision, unwillingness to snub friends.....those are the problems.