Titusville Manifest and Sky Gods new deployment altitudes

Other than your statement, "There are no clearly stated deployment rules at Titusville", I'm still wondering whether or not you knew the canopy-open rule before you jumped.

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Other than your statement, "There are no clearly stated deployment rules at Titusville", I'm still wondering whether or not you knew the canopy-open rule before you jumped.

Yes, I actually read the new SIM. After all as a card carrying USPA member I try to see what my organization does, what my elected representatives do and soon.

When it comest to the two hundred jump wonder manifest lady proclaimed under fully deployed canopy at 3,000 feet AGL rule I had no idea about it. Neither had she, as a matter of fact as it took her at least two minutes to answer my question as to what the rule is. As a matter of fact the particular self proclaimed Titusville S&TA had no idea about cotainer opening altitudes included in the BSRs.

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Interesting incident: I got scolded by the large manifest lady at Titusville for pulling too low today. She had absolutely no idea what she was talking about, but apparently some very experienced skydivers saw me pull low.

Not being to sure what the requirement for S&TA is under USPA regs I wont comment on the right of the manifester to scold you.

I will say that she did a good job by pointing out your error (although you should have been made fully aware before you jumped), but she should have been more courteyous.

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I have to admit that I am well impressed with the altitude measurement equipment of the mentioned 'very experienced skydivers'. Most people at Titusville choose to dump above 4,000 AGL. I go with the BSR i.e: container opening at 3,000 AGL, which is higher than required anyway.

Its very easy to tell if someone is deploying 1000ft lower than anyone else, either in the sky or on the ground.

The fact that Titusville have a policy dictating a higher deployment height than BSR is their right, they own/run the DZ and as long as local rules do not breach BSR rules they can do what they like (this is true of the BPA and I would assume USPA is the same).

Your lucky you dont jump at a DZ I run.

You would have to wear headgear for every jump, have a kit check prior to emplaning, AAD's would be mandatory, be under a main canopy by 3000ft, there would be no swooping unless cleared by me, no landing close to buildings or spectators and tandems would be hooked up prior to takeoff.

And thats just for starters.

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In conclusion I requested my money back. At first I was refused and told I could sell my tickets to someone. Finally, after expalining that by selling me tickets they entered into a contractual agreement with me to transport me to altitude, they decided to pay me back. Anyway, if you are not willing to be very nice to the manifest lady, don't go to Titusville

If the DZ has posted the local rules, and you have been made aware of them by signing a waiver (should you bother to read it)or such, then its your tough luck if you then choose not to jump there after being reprimanded for breaking them. I would not give you a refund in this case.

Its only a contract if you abide by the terms of it, by choosing to deploy below the minimum altitude set by the DZ you have chosen not to (this is of course assuming the rules are laid out and you have been made aware of them).

It may be due to the brevity of your initial post, but it seems that after the manifester (albeit rudely) made you aware of your misdemeanour you got the hump and threw your your teddy in the corner.

Ill be honest I doubt whether youd be welcome at my DZ with that attitude.

Just realised you havent had the courage of your convictions to identify yourself in your profile.

DOH

1. You still haven't answered the question: which annoyed you the most, the rule, or the tone of voice/choice of words with which you were spoken to?

2. If you dislike rudeness, repeatedly referring to her as "the large manifest lady" in a public forum doesn't set a good contrasting example.

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I would not give you a refund in this case.

Can you clarify this?

1 - I don't think he asked for a refund for the jump he already made.

2 - I think he wanted his "unused" tickets refunded so he could leave.

If you mean the first - then, no kidding, you delivered altitude and an opportunity to exit, no "refund"

If you mean the second, no "cash out"- then I wouldn't jump at your DZ either


agreed, DZs can have their own rules - but they need to be clear if they are unusual.

no excuse for staff to be rude - a good DZO will make sure of it

Alex, you are a nice guy but do me the coutresy and read my post:

1. There are no posted or informal deployment altitudes at Titusville. Believe me I read the waiver carefully, I am anal about signing stuff.

2. The manifest lady had a bad day and she took it out on me.

3. According to USPA unless accreditted, she has no competency to be an S&TA

4. Of all the safety regulations you mention, all are optional at Titusville so let's not talk about safety. Incidentally I agree with you on the tandem rule - they should be hoocked up before take of.

5. Last but not least, I am from Florida. If I ever chose to jump in the UK, I will try to stay away from the DZ you run. Apparently there are plenty of other DZs in your fair country and I may chose to leave MY money where I please. Now when you are in Florida, let me buy you a beer. This discussion is about expected Service Levels at drop zones and adherence to USPA BSRs. If employees at your DZ are less then professional then it is your bottom line that eventually will reflect it.

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You might to share your point of view with Lucy.

I dont think you could equate the service her and the other manifesters/coordinators do with the paltry sum they get paid.

were not all as lucky as you to get paid to skydive

Actually I DO bring Lucy tea from time to time (and lend her my Ipod)... our manifesters deserve it...

And Netheravon is a special case since I get such good rates there, but just to clarify (unlike you!) I don't get paid to jump... just discounted tickets. If you are offering though...

As a point of interest I have been pretty lucky with manifests wherever I have jumped over the years but in the OP position I think I would have been a little ticked off.

Peace out!

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1. You still haven't answered the question: which annoyed you the most, the rule, or the tone of voice/choice of words with which you were spoken to?

2. If you dislike rudeness, repeatedly referring to her as "the large manifest lady" in a public forum doesn't set a good contrasting example.

1. Good point. I was annoyed with the fact that my integrity was questioned. I deploy according to the indications of my Alti 2 and my L&B Pro Dytter. My Pro Dytter is set for 6,500; 4,500 and last 2,500 feet AGL. I have never heard the 2,500 AGL signal go off. It is meant as w severe warning to me and it is my choice not to go that low. The manifest person questioned all the above. When I said that I deloy at 3,000 AGL she basically told me I was lying as very experienced skydivers saw me deploy lower. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you may have 75,000 jumps and you still will not be more accurate that two instruments on my wrist and helmet.

2. Another good point. I rally did not mean to be rude, but there are more ladies working manifest there. I just wanted to differenciate. I wanted to avoind putting her name here. I don't think I used a derrogatory term, just a mere description. There is a point where political correctness borders on ridicule

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First of all, always be nice to your Manifest ladies. Always. According to you just because you're going to Titsville you should be nice to Manifest. Wrong. Be nice to Manifest everywhere. All the time. They're the ones who call 911 on your ass when you fuck up.

I agree with you right up to here

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I'm a Manifester and everyone respects our office reguardless. It's only appropriate. Without them you wouldnt even be getting on a plane. If you're pissed that they relayed a message from other experienced skydivers concerning your pull alltitude then thank them. They are only DOING THEIR DAMN JOBS and going above and beyond to ensure your safty. It's not harassment its a damn safety check. People that freak out and complain on dz.com like you just because they were concerned and looking out for you should not be jumping.

You may think everyone respects you but I think you are mistaken.With the attitude that is starting to come out of you in this part of your post I suspect most of them just tolerate you.If your not happy with your DAMN job you should do the sport a favor and go find another one.

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Yeah everyone in skydiving wants safety. Promote it. How many accidents could have been avoided this year if people asked questions like the Titsville Manifesters did. Good job Titsville. I would have given him back his tickets too. He sounds like liability.

Probably alot because if everyone go talked to like that when they went to the DZ I expect there would be even fewer people jumping.I have seen this attitude at a few DZs,a staff that acts like they are doing you a favor by working there.NEWS FLASH...YOUR NOT!! You can be replaced and with a bad attitude everyone is happy to see you go.I know this seems a little off topic but really it's not.It speaks to the tone that the OP was addressed and it is a problem in our sport.Now RESPECT MY AUTHOROTIE!

To clarify.

It seems from his initial post that after deploying lower than allowed at the DZ he was reprimanded by the manifester.

Had the rule been posted and he had been made aware of it then if he chose not to jump I would not refund his tickets.

As it turns out the rules do not seem to be posted, therefore I do agree that in this case he is entitled to a refund.

However I would argue that an experienced jumper you would want to know something like that before you jumped, along with landing pattern, landing area etc. etc.

I agree the attitude displayed by the manifester was unacceptable.

In defense of manifest people, they do get a lot of shit from jumpers and I'm sure it gets tiresome.

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Alex, you are a nice guy but do me the coutresy and read my post:

1. There are no posted or informal deployment altitudes at Titusville. Believe me I read the waiver carefully, I am anal about signing stuff.

Your initial post says nothing about this.

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2. The manifest lady had a bad day and she took it out on me.

You should have spoken to the management about her attitude.

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3. According to USPA unless accreditted, she has no competency to be an S&TA

Thats why I made no comment

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4. Of all the safety regulations you mention, all are optional at Titusville so let's not talk about safety. Incidentally I agree with you on the tandem rule - they should be hoocked up before take of.

I would say that it is a safety related argument.

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5. Last but not least, I am from Florida. If I ever chose to jump in the UK, I will try to stay away from the DZ you run. Apparently there are plenty of other DZs in your fair country and I may chose to leave MY money where I please. Now when you are in Florida, let me buy you a beer. This discussion is about expected Service Levels at drop zones and adherence to USPA BSRs. If employees at your DZ are less then professional then it is your bottom line that eventually will reflect it.

I dont run a DZ, I mearly said if I did.

I do however occasionally act as CCI (S&TA) at Netheravon, one of the biggest and busiest DZ's in the UK.

Please come jump here should you ever come to the UK, all our rules are on the form you sign when you become a member the club.

I'll be in Deland last week March first week April, the first beer is on me

It's nice to be important, but it's more important to be nice.

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And Netheravon is a special case since I get such good rates there, but just to clarify (unlike you!) I don't get paid to jump... just discounted tickets. If you are offering though...

Frank did you not realise I am a civvy now? Thought the long hair and sidies would have given it away.

I unfortunately only get paid for a 40 hour week now, unlike you squaddies

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And Netheravon is a special case since I get such good rates there, but just to clarify (unlike you!) I don't get paid to jump... just discounted tickets. If you are offering though...

Frank did you not realise I am a civvy now? Thought the long hair and sidies would have given it away.

I unfortunately only get paid for a 40 hour week now, unlike you squaddies

Actually I assumed you had just transferred to the cavalry or AGC...

40 hours a week on porn stars wages still means you get paid enough to sub a few jumps for someone who still devotes himself selflessly to protecting democracy etc... tour dodger!

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In defense of manifest people, they do get a lot of shit from jumpers and I'm sure it gets tiresome.

Well, that is probably true. You will agree that it's a paid job and they can change it.

I am generally a very amicable person with manifest people, but I will not let them take out their issues on me. There has to be a celarly defined boundry there.

I've never jumped at Titusville although I do plan on stopping by when I make the trip to FL in Jan.

After reading this thread I decided to call the DZ and ask them if this was a rule or not. Jean was very friendly and told me that they do follow the normal deployment altitudes set forth in the BSRs.

Maybe what happened this past weekend was a one time bad experience for you, which sucks but it happens.

So in short Skydive Space Center does not make upjumpers deploy at 4,000 AGL.

Again sorry you had a bad experience.

Indeed I was just informed of the same. I guess rules either change from manifestor to manifestor, day to day or some jumpers are not considered BSR worthy.

Then of course lets not forget that very experienced skydivers know better than you at what altitude you deploy, so don't argue.

The issue is that fun skydivers at certain dropzones are treated like crap. I have no ambitions of becoming a professional skydiver or manifest employee. I do it for fun. I stay well within the limits prescribed by the USPA. Having my integrity questioned by incompetent people and arbitrarily assigning rules different that those of USPA is something I take offence to.

Yeah, I got carried away with ranting. I appologize. I love my job, I love skydivers and so many people kick Manifest. I know that's just how life is. I understand that. At my dz we do work hard to try and make sure that #1, safety happens. #2 we keep out skydivers happy. #2 skydivers at our facility are safe and happy. Yes I ranted but it is very tiring of Manifesters being ragged on.

My thing is, they asked him a question. I don't know if they were rude or not, or if he just took it as rude. Or was offeneded because someone would even ask him that, and percieved it as rude. Being as I've been in this situation before, having to ask questions, I understand both sides. I just did not like his attitutde. Seriously, everyone is just promoting safety. Yes, they may have said it rudely, but we don't know. We weren't there. Safety first. It's a calm discussion that can be had.

What I got out of his post was that Manifest as Titsuville sucks and I'm not convinced of that.

I would like to hear from another Manifester on this? Is there any others on dz.com?

Since Titusville is the one being called out, I'm hoping someone from their management will post their side of the story.

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Had the rule been posted and he had been made aware of it then if he chose not to jump I would not refund his tickets.

You would not refund his "UNUSED" tickets????

I think that stinks. And I don't care what the reason is if you didn't deliver the product he purchased (bad weather, slow jump day, disagreement on policy, poor service, no one to jump with, you just don't like that jumper and want him off your property)

other than that, I like your post, but that's pretty huge. I have a hard time believing that you have that policy.

My experience and opinion is this.Manifesters that get ragged on,most of the time,bring it on themselves.I have never been to a DZ where when the customers (jumpers) were treated well, that treatment was not returned.To word that better you reap what you sow.If you treat me like it's my pleasure to have you serve me then I might not be the fun loving easy going guy I usually am.
Manifests job should be to manifest not police the jumpers.Only at the smallest of small DZs do I think manifest should be involved with the jumpers in that way.There is too much going on for them to be responsable for all of that.

Again I say to everyone.If your not happy with your job in skydiving go find another one.Everyone will be happier.This goes for the manifester to the packers to the guy that vacuums the floor(DZO),your not doing anyone any favors by staying where you are not happy.I shot video for 4 yrs and grew tired of the DZ politics so I don't do it anymore.Simple as that.

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Since Titusville is the one being called out, I'm hoping someone from their management will post their side of the story.

I would very much look forward to that. I have taken the issue up with the USPA and copied the email that was given to me by Titusville staff. They have my email, and phone number. Till now I have heard nothing from them. I guess they just don't care.

1. I would very much like to know how the very experienced skydivers know better than my L&B Pro Dytter and Alti 2 what my container opening altitude is.

2. I would like to know what ground and/or airborne measurement devices they use to measure that.

3. I would like to know why I was basically called a liar.

I am looking forward to their responses.

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I requested my money back. At first I was refused and told I could sell my tickets to someone.

Out of all of this, This is what is most disturbing to me. If you have money on account and/or Jump tickets, And have a falling out with management for any reason and inform them you no longer wish to jump there.. Whatever money that you have left on account after paying for all Jumps should be refunded without question.

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In defense of manifest people, they do get a lot of shit from jumpers and I'm sure it gets tiresome.

I agree, I've seen some crappy treatment, especially by very up jumpers. It's 'understandable', but that doesn't justify crapping on Jumper B because Jumper A was an idiot.

A better way would be ok keep the money let me make one more jump out of the king air FRONT FLOAT.
As to the altitude deployment. If you followed all of USPA's recommendations and pulled within that guideline, why were you given a hard time?
On a side note, i thought the manifestors job was to manifest. Isn't it the S and TAs job to do the policing?