Titusville Manifest and Sky Gods new deployment altitudes

Quote

I was always under the impression manifeters get paid

Yes. Usually not very well, though.

Quote

In their job duties, we the customers, should put up with their attitudes because they are doing there job.

I agree there as well, that they should try to have good service, they are in a service industry job. They don't have to put up with abuse, but they don't need to be abusive.

Quote

if the manifestor is in charge of loading the plane being the STA and other stuff then maybe some of the DZOs need to address some of these issues.

Definately. Atleast for weekend operations in which there will be more then just a handful of people out at even the smallest DZs. Its not hard to have your "outside staff" and your "inside staff" seperated. Most of your "outside staff" are your instructional staff, taking on extra duties such as loading the plane, being S&TA, etc. Some DZs have broken some of those tasks off to other paid staff, but the majority of DZs don't have the cash flow to do that at anything but their larger events.

Eitherway, having someone that is apart of your "inside staff" whom is inside running the manifest/small gear shop/small snack bar/etc should not have the audacity to think that they can be a safety officer for jumpers. Especially since they typically can't even see whats going on, except out of a smallish window sometimes.

As that applies to the DZ originally posted about, I couldn't tell you, I've never jumped there. Just a commentary on general DZ practices in which I've seen some good and bad in my travels.

I personally don't see what profile info has to do with any of this. Jraf is not a troll, and not a ghost....why is profile info important in this conversation?

If he had 10 jumps are you going to discredit him for being a "newbie"? If he has 10,.000 jumps does that make him any more credible in describing the situation?

Ahhhh....everything that needs to be said has already been said and it's degenerated into "less than useful".....I'm outta here.

Ooooo...but I AM interested in discussing Inter gallactical travel

Quote

In defense of manifest people, they do get a lot of shit from jumpers and I'm sure it gets tiresome.

Well I get a lot of shit in my job, too. Who is defending me?

Nobody.. because theres no need to. Its just part of life.

Quote

This post is all about unsatisfactory service and lack of professional integrity of Titusville employees.

So were multiple employees being rude or just one that you had a disagreement with?

In your first post I agreed how you could be mad, but now you just continue to whine. Don't go there anymore, I'm sure they won't miss you. You got a jump in, opened at your normal altitude, got refunded for your remaining jump tickets and left. What more do you want?

Quote

Apparently the owners don't care

Maybe they don't know yet.

Hope everything works out for you. I'll be in your neck of the woods in a few weeks. If I make it down to Deland I hope to be able to meet you as well as Skymama and others.

Lastly: What can USPA do about this? You said you contacted them but what action can they take in a situation (he said/she said) like this?

Cross my heart I was more than civil. I just can't accept that my integrity was treated so lightly.

Quote

I was always under the impression manifeters get paid..Maybe i am missing something here. So, what some peeps are saying. In their job duties, we the customers, should put up with their attitudes because they are doing there job.
Also, if the manifestor is in charge of loading the plane being the STA and other stuff then maybe some of the DZOs need to address some of these issues.

Me, I run mostly on youthful enthusiasm and free jumps. And in my experience a huge majority of the jumpers show appreciation for the efforts, even though it's just what manifestors do and even though, if we're being strict, it's what they're entitled to as customers. Of course if someone has problems with me trying to be cheerful all day long, they're free not to put up with it, it's just not very likely that I'll change just for them
And if I'm a control freak and feel the need to multitask as STA as well...so shoot me. I'm sure it'd be nice to have someone especially for that, but better me than noone.

Well, goto deland. Now those cats know how to run manifest.

That's great. Wish more manifeters could be cheerful all day long. I think the main point here is someone was treated like shit at a dz and it is acceptable because they have a hard job. People have come back with explanations of their job and why its stressfull. Seriously, and this is not at you, if you can't handle doing manifest then do something else. Why should i have to put up with your bullshit because your having a bad day.
Just like when i hear jumpmasters bitch and whine they work all the time and never get to fun jump. Find another job. Fuck it's that simple

Quote

I just can't accept that my integrity was treated so lightly.

If a regular Jumper that the manifest person knew and respected came up and told her you pulled low, I can see why she would take his word over someone she didnt know at all. If this was your first time there, How is she supposed to know if you are an honest person??

Someone you know and trust says one thing, A complete stranger says something different, who would be more likely to believe??

Quote

Quote

I just can't accept that my integrity was treated so lightly.

If a regular Jumper that the manifest person knew and respected came up and told her you pulled low, I can see why she would take his word over someone she didnt know at all. If this was your first time there, How is she supposed to know if you are an honest person??

Someone you know and trust says one thing, A complete stranger says something different, who would be more likely to believe??

This addresses another industry problem. I have jumped there for a year now. I have established myself as a skydiver. It is very often at this point that you become a threat to the local clique. People take it personally when you stand your own ground. Especially in skydiving where a lot of people are dealing with a lot of issues.

With great and all due respect to my professional skydiver friends I have to note that a lot of professional skydivers are are easily intimidated by individuals to whom skydiving is just one of the activities and not the fabric of their life. Perhaps that was the case. I think that is worth a good analysis.

Quote

You write as if you had a financial stake in the Titusville dropzone, which I hope you do, but then identify yourself as the co-DZO.

I do not have any stake, financial or otherwise in Skydive Space Center. I just jump there, occasionally, as I do at several other Florida DZs.

I apologize for misreading the type of audible that you were jumping. Obviously, with a Dytter there is no record of your deployment altitude.

I am not trying to attack you here, only to ask some relevant questions. I think that you are devaluing your arguement by not answering them, but that is your choice.

I'm not sure why you chose to bring up the length of time that I have been in this sport. I have simply tried to go from day to day staying safe and alive in a sport where some have not. It has been my experience that more time in this sport gives one additional insight, rather than making one extra-stupid, as you imply.

Kevin Keenan

Quote

I am not trying to attack you here, only to ask some relevant questions. I think that you are devaluing your arguement by not answering them, but that is your choice.

I'm not sure why you chose to bring up the length of time that I have been in this sport. I have simply tried to go from day to day staying safe and alive in a sport where some have not. It has been my experience that more time in this sport gives one additional insight, rather than making one extra-stupid, as you imply.

Well perhaps I have put a bit of sarcasm in my post so please forgive.

Now having made it through 35 years of skydiving has not made you extra stupid, by no means. As a matter of fact I am sure you can share a lot of advice and knowledge. I also am sure that you have learned to distinguish between legitimate safety issues and stupid little power plays.

Given the fact that when I called the Titusville DZ today I was informed that they adhere to the USPA BSR minimum pull altitudes I don't understand what yesterdays issue was about, aside just being jerks.

I am also sure that you well know that guestimating someones elses altitude from ground or air is at best a futile task. Depending on time of day, light, cloudcover and many other factors the same person may see to be at different levelsto the uninstrumented eye of even the most experienced jumper.

Sumarizing - I was bullied at Titusville yesterday. Not the ifrst time, but definitely the last. The plane just is not worth the hassle.

Quote

If a regular Jumper that the manifest person knew and respected came up and told her you pulled low, I can see why she would take his word over someone she didnt know at all. If this was your first time there, How is she supposed to know if you are an honest person??

But why the big cloak and dagger conspiracy treatment involving manifest?? These "experienced regulars" should have done the responsible thing and approached jraf to tell him that their dz operates a little differently, perhaps he can adhere to their rules. Insead they whisper behind his back and involve manifest?? This is not a very good tight-knit skydiving community mentality. This could all have been avoided if people just talked more, whats the big deal?

Doesn't space center advertise regular 18000 king air trips ?? I guess your still only getting a 14000 foot jump?

Also, manifest is a hard job no doubt, my DZ can't even keep a manifestor for a whole season, and yes it is a service provider-to-customer relationship technically, but this is still skydiving people, we shouldn't compare this sport to other businesses. We should respect each other in the skydiving community, there aren't that many of us around, its not hard to keep a family mentality, even at other DZ's.

LESS ARGUING....MORE BEER !!

PS. -- chill-pills are attached to this post if you need one

Quote

Doesn't space center advertise regular 18000 king air trips ?? I guess your still only getting a 14000 foot jump?

The regular jump run is 15,000 feet. So if I am the special case that, according to the two hundred jump wonder manifest lady, needs to be under fully deployed canopy at 3,000 feet then they can take their plane and fly to Cuba with it. Bon voyage to them. There appear to be plenty of other DZs in Florida within the same or reasonable driving from my pad:

Air Adventures of Clewiston, 50 miles west of West Palm Beach
Florida Skydiving Center, 50 miles southwest of Orlando
Freefall Adventures, Florida, 70 miles southeast of Orlando
The Jumping Place @ Jax, 27 miles north of Jacksonville International Airport
School of Human Flight, 15 miles west of Tallahassee
Skydive City, 22 miles northeast of Tampa
Skydive DeLand, Inc., 45 miles north of Orlando
Skydive Key West, 12 miles north of Key West
Skydive Miami, 20 miles southwest of Miami
Skydive Palatka, Inc., 45 miles south of Jacksonville
Skydive Sebastian, 70 miles southeast of Orlando
Skydive SW Florida, 25 miles north of Fort Myers
Skydive Umatilla, 32 miles northwest of Orlando

Quote

The regular jump run is 15,000 feet

Thats a shade higher than most DZ's run jumprun. Is the idea to give you an extra 1000ft or so on top, and then everyone dumps a little higher?

If it is, that's an awesome idea. No harm in opening a little higher AGL.

Quote

There appear to be plenty of other DZs in Florida within the same or reasonable driving from my pad:

So why not just stop bitching about it and go jump at one of them?

Come on back to ZHills, JRAF! You know we all miss you there!

mp

Quote

Quote

The regular jump run is 15,000 feet

Thats a shade higher than most DZ's run jumprun. Is the idea to give you an extra 1000ft or so on top, and then everyone dumps a little higher?

If it is, that's an awesome idea. No harm in opening a little higher AGL.

That is not what they advertise themselves as. And once again when called they say that BSR rules are what you are supposed to anhere to.

I jumped there for the extra air time and not for a plane ride. If you want a plane ride I suggest one of the plushy heavies at Pittsburgh International - they have seat and air conditioning.

...If you want a better analogy, it's like going to a restaraunt that a friend of yours runs, one where you help out cooking when there's a shortage of cooks, and in return he gives you meals for cost. One night you come in, he's in a tearing hurry, and you don't want to help out. Instead you order a steak. You get it (for $5) and complain about how it's cooked. You demand another one RIGHT NOW. Your friend is harried and can't do it. So you demand your money back...I'd suspect you'd get it. And what you would lose there would be far, far more than the $5 you might have lost had you not been a pain in the butt...
_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

Well said. I've been treated well at almost every DZ I've visited. I didn't break the rules, but at the same time the "rules" were nothing more than the basic survival stuff we learned as students.

If the DZ asks for an unusually high opening, is this policy posted in large letters somewhere near manifest? (And, as an aside, who came up with this policy and how long has he been in the sport? This reeks of the same mentality that demands mandatory AAD's...)

I used to visit a northeast DZ that forbade off landings in a certain area due to neighbor issues. I learned this at the end of the day, and wondered why this was not posted conspicuously. As an occasional visitor, it would have created hard feelings if I had been reprimanded for choosing a safe "out" instead of risking the more dangerous choice of trying to navigate obstacles while trying to make the airport property.

On the plus side, it appears that Florida residents can find a DZ in any direction without driving more than 20 miles.

Cheers,
Jon S.

Aside from all of that let's not forget our daughter was shot in the leg with a pellet gun by a kid running the snack bar because she went behind the counter. I never allowed her to go there again.

Quote

Aside from all of that let's not forget our daughter was shot in the leg with a pellet gun by a kid running the snack bar because she went behind the counter. I never allowed her to go there again.

This isn't a DZ issue, it's an assault issue. If the snack bar boss didn't address the employee, what did the cops do to the shooter?

I agree to that. And I also agree to the above poster about refunding tickets. It should be policy everywhere that any skydiver can refund his or her tickets.

Quote

Quote

Aside from all of that let's not forget our daughter was shot in the leg with a pellet gun by a kid running the snack bar because she went behind the counter. I never allowed her to go there again.

This isn't a DZ issue, it's an assault issue. If the snack bar boss didn't address the employee, what did the cops do to the shooter?

Believe it or not I am such a troublesome customer that I let it slide. I considered it to be an issue between kids, since the shooter was a son of one of the riggers.

I hope you will now admitt that it takes a lot to really piss me off.

Quote

This isn't a DZ issue, it's an assault issue. If the snack bar boss didn't address the employee, what did the cops do to the shooter?

Agreed. Completely different issue. We didn't call the police( even though it was my first thought but my husband said he would handle it). The teenage shooter was well talked to but I chose not to let my daughter go anymore. But you are right, not a dz issue. Just kind of tainted the whole experience.