With 200 Jumps loading 1,46 (Sabre 2 135)

Doug's right. If you're careful and do straight in upwind landings, you could (and probably would) be ok. But the real danger is how you'll react when you have unexpected situations such as landing out or avoiding a sudden obstacle near the ground.

Please provide:
Name of instructor
Name of DZO of dropzone you intend to jump this gear at
Name of S&TA on duty when you exit the plane in this configuration
Name of Rigger that packs the reserve with this configuration

I intend to file a formal complaint against all of them to the USPA safety officials.

Just kidding. You are a troll. In this forum you are called "400 jumps velo guy"

Troll motto: "Go in or Go home!"

Quote

-flat turn at least 90 degrees at 50 feet Check (toggles)

Are you saying you think a flat turn of at least 90 degrees at 50 feet should be accomplished by a normal toggle turn (pull left turn left)

mereanarchy

Quote

-flat turn at least 90 degrees at 50 feet Check (toggles)

Are you saying you think a flat turn of at least 90 degrees at 50 feet should be accomplished by a normal toggle turn (pull left turn left)

No i think i would hit the ground. I mean, that i think i am able to do it.
Thats one of the things we practiced in the canopy courses, as well as flare turns.

But we didn´t practice that low to the ground, we did high up and had the order, to try turns with a minimum loss of height.
Havent tried it @ 15m, but if i´m not wrong, it is just the same as a slow flare turn.

enta

No i won´t, but still considering to stay @ 150 (wih my 160 reserve).
The main reason i want to go with a 135 is that i think it´s okay when I just go for straight landings and really slowly built up speed.

You won't learn much coming in straight and "really slow". You'd learn more by staying on your 150 and continuing to learn it's limits. There is much to learn there!!!

And, screw all you guys with the "Canopy Nazi" comments. We just had a young kid end up in a hospital, severely broken. He assured everyone he was going to "take it easy" on his new postage stamp.


To the OP.... Sabre 2 150 is a very capable canopy. 80 jumps means you've just begun to learn it's capabilities. Carry on. At 800 jumps you'll be a better canopy pilot because you stayed on it.

IMHO if it matters?

After all i read in here i am really wondering, that the official association for Skydiving in my country recommends a maximum wl of 1,5 from 200 to 500 jumps or 1,5 maximum until 500 jumps.

I have to look what other associations recommend.

To be honest, i thought most will tell me don´t do it and some will say chill the fuck out, it´s okay.

But that everyone recommends to stay with 150 is unexpected.
Maybe you did a good thing and i really go for a larger rig.

Thank you very much for your input, i´m gonna confront my rigger with that.

skyjumpenfool

***

No i won´t, but still considering to stay @ 150 (wih my 160 reserve).
The main reason i want to go with a 135 is that i think it´s okay when I just go for straight landings and really slowly built up speed.

You won't learn much coming in straight and "really slow". You'd learn more by staying on your 150 and continuing to learn it's limits. There is much to learn there!!!

And, screw all you guys with the "Canopy Nazi" comments. We just had a young kid end up in a hospital, severely broken. He assured everyone he was going to "take it easy" on his new postage stamp.


To the OP.... Sabre 2 150 is a very capable canopy. 80 jumps means you've just begun to learn it's capabilities. Carry on. At 800 jumps you'll be a better canopy pilot because you stayed on it.

IMHO if it matters?

I guess you are right, to explain this part.
I never had the plan to go 135 next season, but i realized, that my rig is not fitting too well, got more obvious since i take freefly seriously.

So i decided to get a custom rig.
With that in mind i wanted to smallest possible rig, so i can jump it a long time and can go smaller with the chutes over the years.

So i started to question if it is okay to go on a 135, so i can get a smaller rig.
It´s not that i start crying if i have to go 1 step bigger (vc1) and stay with my 150 sabre 2, i just don´t want to take a bigger one, take another 30 jumps or something on the 150 and then go for a 135.

It´s a 3500€ rig and it would be sad if i couldn´t jump it for many years.

So i think, if a sabre 135 would be a little bit risky, but not a too big deal, i definitely would go for that.
But now it seems like it is a pretty big deal, so maybe i shouldn´t do that :)

I really wasn´t expecting 100% "nogo comments", but it´s a good thing, now i am really really aware of the downsides.
I hope i won´t be stupid, but I will tell you if I will or will not be.

I have the same advice as everyone else, for the same reasons, but maybe a different data point.

If I start learning to swoop next season (and I think I will), I'm going to do it on a Sabre2 150 (currently alternating between a Stiletto 120 and a Stiletto 135, though I prefer the 135). That's a canopy that can teach a person a heck of a lot.

Could you get away with the 135? Probably. As in, "you'll probably be fine" - though your chances of getting hurt definitely go up significantly, the odds are that you would avoid hospital. Should you? Not if you want to get good at this whole thing faster.

enta

***>I think i know most of you will recommend to stay at 150 and i will propably go
>for it anyways, but i´m still interested in your opinions and how fast/slow you
>downsized.

Once you can take your 150 under almost any conditions and:

-stand up 100% of your landings Check (Within the last 30 jumps, except the one i tried to hit the inflatable pool)

-flat turn at least 90 degrees at 50 feet Check (toggles)
-flare turn at least 45 degrees Check
-land standing in a crosswind Check
-land safely downwind no downwinds so far
-land reliably, standing up, within a 10 meter circle almost
-initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing Nope
-land standing up on slight uphills and downhills it´s like netherlands on my DZ
-land with rear risers Wouldn´t do this if not necessary.

then you might be ready to downsize. Can you do all that?

I'm puzzled - if you haven't tried induced speed landings at a 1.3 W/L on your Sabre 2 150, why would you possibly be considering a 135 for next season? If you want to go faster, get some more canopy coaching and tell your coach that's what you want to progress towards. After that, your canopy coach would be a much better person to ask about the viability of canopy choices than your rigger.

Why do you keep mentioning your rigger's opinion on your downsizing? I might be well enough informed as a rigger to tell you that your exit weight won't blow out a Sabre 2 135 on deployment, and whether it would fit in a certain container with a particular reserve, but that's about it.

T

So the way I'm reading this, you are tempted to downsize to a canopy that you know you aren't ready for yet because you are worried about outgrowing your new rig too soon.

Why not get that shiny new rig that you want, sized for that 135 with room to go down one size in the future, but in the mean time, get yourself a 150 Pulse, Silhouette, or Pilot ZPX to work on until you know you are ready for the 135?

I had the same mindset, and I went for it. I've only put 10 jumps on my new rig, and they have all been good landings (in perfect conditions) but if I have to land downwind in a tight spot, I might just aim for the trees to break my fall. 10 jumps on a brand new canopy and I've been scouring the classifieds for a good used one the next size up.

Remster

So, in 80 jumps, you managed to explore and master the entire flight envelope of the 150 you currently have?

You just wish you had the mad skillz.

I'm surprised it took him that long.

I don't see any reason you could not get a brand new shiny rig sized to hold the 150 and
In a few years. When you are truly ready for it. put a 135 in there. But what do I know I have only been at this 35 years.

35 years ago, if you wanted more speed, you just cut a couple small holes in your T-10

I didnt read all the other replies, but I tell you this...
You can do a LOT on a Sabre2 @ 1.32.
Learn to fly the 150 for real, not the learning you do in 80 jumps. I mean put at least 300+ on it. It will be way more productive in the long run.

once you think you have flown your current wing to is FULL capacity and mastered ALL of the life saving skills listed., throw on a weight vest/belt and UP the wingloading for 100 jumps if you can still do all the things that you need to know to save yourself in a pressure situation, then THINK about downsizing.

I get this question at the DZ every year, and my answer is usually the same. I'm sure you can fly the new canopy and land it safely 99% of the time. The time I worry about is that 1% that shit hits the fan and you aren't experienced enough to handle it. Are you ready for that responsibility for injuring yourself severely or even worse someone else?

Take your time and learn the 150. It hurts alot less to screw up on a lighter WL than it does on higher WL. (Commen sense) If you plan on being in the sport for a good amount of time, you just need to slow down. The sad part is all instructors aren't good ones and can give you some terrible advice.

I'll give you an example of a recent jumper. He was flying a sabre 210 and wanted to start flying something more aggressive. He showed up at the DZ and was flying a crossfire 2 169. After I found out I had a long talk with him about his choice and the reasons he went there. He still decided to keep jumping it. Got professional coaching at other dropzones and was doing pretty well with it. Fast forward about 100 jumps and that 1% came back and bite him in the ass. I'm still not sure how he didn't break himself but he walked away with a bruised ego and ended up taking a few weeks off to reconsider his canopy choice.

Most people that make posts like this already made up their mind and it doesn't really matter what people think. They believe they are better than all the hot shots that enter the sport. Some make it, but most don't.

good luck and best safe.

enta

***I'm also kinda tired of these sort of questions. No one will advise you that it's a good idea, you already know that. Skydiving is an adult sport. Assess the risks and make a decision you can live with, whatever the consequences. Don't come here asking for permission. Man up.

Oh you are tired of that, i´m really sorry to hear that, so you propably shouldn´t answer to questions of this kind.


All right, seriously, when faced with basically the same choice many years ago here is how I decided. After a few weeks of wondering which of two sizes to choose, I realized that if I had to ask, if there was seriously a question, then the obvious correct answer was to take the safer choice. But everyone is different, this is what I mean when I say skydiving is an adult sport. You get to make your own decisions and you must live with the consequences.

jbscout2002

35 years ago, if you wanted more speed, you just cut a couple small holes in your T-10

small holes . my ass. we cut big ass t- u mods in them. and cut the antiinversion netting off.

Here's my question:

have you ever messed up on that 150? Or anything larger? Like seriously, ground-rushing, toggle-stabbing-to-save-your-ass messed up?

Because you will mess up eventually. Everyone does, even the guys with 1000s of jumps and the pro-level swoopers. The smaller you go, the lower your margin for error.

I had a very similar progression to yours... 150 followed by a new rig and 135 at <200 jumps, loading it around 1.5. What I believe helped me immensely not to hurt myself was the fact that I had hooked it in once on a Falcon 215. I walked away with sore knees and a stained jumpsuit, but it taught me heaps about respecting the wing above my head. Every new canopy I flew from that point on, I treated as potentially lethal, and every mistake I've made flying a canopy from that point on was below what the margin for error on that wing allowed.

Then again, in a situation where you have to land between buildings, parked cars and power lines, you might be grateful for that 150. Canopy skills can make up for extra nylon, and it's great to know you're investing in canopy courses, but even so, those skills come from airtime, and airtime comes with more jumps. And as others have commented, there's a lot you can get out a Sabre2, even at your current wl.

enta

...that my rig is not fitting too well, got more obvious since i take freefly seriously.

So i decided to get a custom rig...so i can jump it a long time and can go smaller with the chutes over the years.

So i started to question if it is okay to go on a 135, so i can get a smaller rig.

So i think, if a sabre 135 would be a little bit risky, but not a too big deal, i definitely would go for that.
But now it seems like it is a pretty big deal, so maybe i shouldn´t do that :)

You might have to accept needing more than 1 container downsizes to get to your goal. Downsizing your container is downsizing your reserve which is really just not worth it for marginal improvement in freeflying.

I have a friend who jumps a Mirage that was built for a 170 main. He jumps a 150 now but started with a pulse 190 in the rig. He went to a Head Down World Record Camp and he narrowly missed getting an invite and only has 400 jumps (works for Ifly). You can fly with a larger container.

I have another friend who bought a Curv vc0, put a pilot 120 in it. Had a few cutaways shortly thereafter and got scared of the container. He's having a hard time selling the container. He has a new container which is a size larger (canopy is 135). He's a good sitflyer but not a headdown flyer. His switching costs were pretty large.

Don't buy a tiny container that you might immediately regret because you're worried about having a rig that lasts you a decade. You don't need a shiny new container, you need a used container with a harness that fits which holds canopies that you can fly now. The risks you accept should clearly give you a reward. The reward is simply not worth it.

Learn to use the front risers for induced speed landings and think about downsizing once you can rock out 270's with ease and comfort. There is no point in upping your wingload if you're already in the 1.2-1.3 range before you have a lot of experience and really want to push the swooping...

Blis

Learn to use the front risers for induced speed landings and think about downsizing once you can rock out 270's with ease and comfort. There is no point in upping your wingload if you're already in the 1.2-1.3 range before you have a lot of experience and really want to push the swooping...

I get what you mean, but wih what you and others say, everybody should stay at his student chute until 500 Jumps.
Most ppl. go smaller without swooping several times.

And don´t tell me you can´t swoop with a 210 chute or something, i saw it :D

So the argument i should become a good swooper before i downsize, is a bit strange.

But I get the point and beside the few ppl. in this thread with their leading questions and smart ass answers I really appreciate your help.

You really helped me very much and i think i will go with a vk1 and jump the 150 at least 1 season longer.
When i come to a point where i can´t fit a smaller chute in the rig, i still have the option to get a chute which packs bigger, like the XF2 :)

Thank you very much, maybe you prevented one dude from another stay at the hospital.

Looking at the curve sizing chart a vc1 should last you a long time. A 150 is a very capable canopy. There is no reason to have faster, more dangerous, straight in landings when you could start to dabble in higher performance landings on your 150. (with proper coaching) Being forced to fly a canopy conservatively will hinder your progression as a canopy pilot.

enta

But I get the point and beside the few ppl. in this thread with their leading questions and smart ass answers I really appreciate your help.

You really helped me very much and i think i will go with a vk1 and jump the 150 at least 1 season longer.

Excellent call, for so many reasons! You are at a critical point in your canopy learning for a lot of people, now you can go out and really fly your ass off (this does not mean swooping - parachutes can do so many cool things).

Glad the smart-aleck remarks didn't detract too much from the message - sometimes even jackasses are right

enta

And don´t tell me you can´t swoop with a 210 chute or something, i saw it :D

So the argument i should become a good swooper before i downsize, is a bit strange.

You can swoop any canopy (well, within a reason). I'm loading my 170 at bit under 1.1 and I can do real nice straight-ins with fronts and currently am working on 90's. So yeah, it's not about your canopy...

The argument that you should become a good swooper before you downsize is a really sensible becouse a big, less loaded canopy is alot more forgiving when (notice, not if but when) you screw up. If you first get a small canopy and then start dabling in the realm of swooping, chances of getting hospitalized increase exponentially.

Obviously I'm basing all this on the fact that you wish to go faster under a canopy and easiest way to go fast under a canopy is to learn front risers and stuff...