Squeak 17 #76 September 24, 2015 FUNKSYou are not now, nor will you ever be, good enough to not die in this sport (Sparky) My Life ROCKS! How's yours doing? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,589 #77 September 24, 2015 Squeak FUNKS "There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
fanya 3 #78 September 24, 2015 RemsterJune 6, 2016. 0.o I'm in July 17, 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
daffes 4 #79 September 24, 2015 Enta, let me give you another perspective on this, it's a little long, so bare with me: First, no one has to downsize, just as no one has to skydive, it's all a game of probabilities and where the line between justified excitement and reckless behavior is drawn. It's usually a good idea to trust people who have been on the sport longer about where to draw this line, since your knowledge is likely not sufficient to do it. Let's say that the average joe skydiver has a probability of bouncing as Pavg, while the probability of the safest skydiver to bounce is Pmin and the probability of the less safe skydiver that is allowed to jump by an S&TA is Pmax. What determines where you lie between this bounce probability spectrum are many factors, which you have listed a few, i.e: 1) How much canopy time you have 2) How many landings you have performed 3) How many landings you have performed in non-ideal situations 4) How many jumps have you spent dedicated to canopy piloting 5) How many canopy courses have you taken 6) What other activities in your life correlate to canopy flying that requires reacting in highly stressful and fast situations. 7) How many times did you get your landing debriefed and filmed 8) "natural" talent, yes it exists, but it's really hard to evaluate precisely, and I wouldn't count on that to make my decisions. I'd rather use proxy achievements that correlates to natural talent, for example, crossing out that downsizing requirements. This list could go on and on... All those factors might bring you closer to the Pmin (safest). Then, you can decide to stay there, and be a safer skydiver than the average joe. Or, you can choose to downsize, and put yourself back at the Pavg. What you can't do is to go beyond Pmax, which then, you must be grounded for the good of the community. Brian Germain, in his book The Parachute and It's Pilot, tried to give people a methodology to determine recommended and maximum wing load based on number of jumps and a few other things. But even him recognize that after 500 jumps, there are too many variables to correlate canopy sizes and jump numbers. I think it's a good idea to stay in his recommendation. Let's say, in the end, that you are in fact a superstar. For this, we can have a simple analogy with Age and Driving. I'm sure there are many kids in the world that could be driving when they are 14. But we can't let them decide this, because too many of them would think they are ready before they actually are, and all the society would suffer with more deaths. Making them waiting two years, or making you wait a few more jumps, might be a little unfair, but in all means it's not a big deal for your skydiving career. Hope you make the right decision for you, and on a side note, there are many things you can do to make your gear more freefly friendly, like using a belly band. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #80 September 24, 2015 dude, dont EVER ask a question about downsizing on here. shitstorm waiting to happen. but yea, about sangi.. he's a friend of mine, and he didnt listen to ANY advice, and i've seen his videos. if you think you'll be fine and you're confident about it, go for it. i once miss-eyed ad 90°, got the visual, thought to myself "oh, THAT's how it looks like to femur!" and stabbed it out. i hit hard, went back up another 3 meters and just kept the thing flying to a final (stand-up) landing. one of the instructors asked me "do you want me to talk about this to you!?" - my answer "nah, i know that was stoopid!" just be alert, every. fucking. time. skydiving maims and kills people. and sometimes those people are still virgins at the age of 20-something, and they'll stay that way. just like sangi. be aware of your decisions, and live with the consequences! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likestojump 3 #81 September 24, 2015 virgin-burner be aware of your decisions, and live with the consequences! Translated : when you femur in, you better not start a GoFundMe, because you certainly won't deserve it. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Joellercoaster 6 #82 September 24, 2015 virgin-burner be aware of your decisions, and live with the consequences! You have walked that particular walk (or hobbled, I guess), so you get to talk the talk. The OP, like all the guys that came before him, has not yet hammered in and has not yet spent the months in rehab. He, like every single other young man on here who posts about understanding and accepting the risks in a thread like this one, does not really think it will happen to him. He is wrong about the first thing, so he cannot really do the second. Despite the tar and feathers brigade, this person is not an idiot - he just doesn't know what he is doing. None of us did at that point. I still hold out hope he'll make a good call, because it sounds like his instincts are all right.-- "I'll tell you how all skydivers are judged, . They are judged by the laws of physics." - kkeenan "You jump out, pull the string and either live or die. What's there to be good at? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enta 0 #83 September 24, 2015 Hello, i wan´t to give an update. So I received a lot of messges about my topic from really nice and experienced people and i am really thankfull for that. I don´t regret opening this thread,because i got a lot of input, but i wasn´t aware of the fact, that i get offended from the first second on, espacially with the fact, that this is my first active try to get advice on this platform. It escalated pretty quickly and it seems to me, almost everyone who posted in here had very bad experiences and is just freaking out immediatly. But again, maybe i am wrong but i think i am a very rational person and i don´t think I take important decisions easily. I had the possibility to tell everyone how a freak of safety i am and never would consider a decision like that, but i decided to be honest and tell you, that i think i am talented at the canopy. I don´t say i am a fucking beautiful snowflake out of thousands, i say i think i am just a bit more talendet than some others (and i believe that) I definitly get your reaction, no one likes arrogant people, but either i am honest or i am not. That doesn´t mean i think i can progress super fast and come away with it. I wasn´t aware i would meet a bunch of angry people predicting my death just because of a question i ask. Especially because i think the skydive community is a very chilled out scene and everyone is trying to help each other. I know things escalated a bit and i am not innocent to that. The main reason i post again, is that i think most of the reactions are really really dangerous to newer skydivers, because some of the reactions are so harsh, that most will think you are complety nutts and won´t follow your advice because of this. If you really want to help people new to this sport and new to this forum, don´t fucking freak out, nobody is helped with that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,145 #84 September 24, 2015 You still don't get it. You are far from the first person to bring up this topic from the very same perspective. It's not just you that everyone is talking to. This forum is read by many others. The message people are sending is not meant just for you, but for all of our friends who may be tempted by the siren call of the tiny cool parachute. This forum has a very good search function. You should consider researching some past threads on this subject. It touches a nerve here because anyone who has been in the sport for more than a few years has seen friends killed or maimed, and thinking there is a need to downsize quickly has been at the root of many of these events. The fact is, your raw talent is not really relevant. Except in the context of experience. Your talent needs to be shaped to lower the risk, and there are no shortcuts. What you are thinking of doing is attempting a shortcut. But as I've already said twice, it's an adult sport. You get to decide the path you take. If you ask this question here you will get emotional responses. How many friends have you seen die in front of your eyes? Many of the people here have watched it. Now do you understand where all the emotion comes from?Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,351 #85 September 24, 2015 I think his point is the degree of perceived hostility. It's not likely to garner additional points from people who consider themselves to be rational, intelligent, adults. Which they sometimes are in all other aspects of their life. Just not skydiving. To the OP, the argument about learning to fly the crap out of a canopy that will forgive some mistakes (or at least let you survive them with bumps) makes sense. Landings are the least forgiving part of the skydive. Respect that. Wendy P.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enta 0 #86 September 24, 2015 Golerk, NOW i get why everyone is overreacting to my thread, but it is not a good way to tell someone why he shouldn´t downsize. I respect and listen to a calm persons with good arguments much more, than someone who tells my im going to die and post videos of ppl. almost did. I feel most of you are extremely biased and think everyone who want´s to downsize is a stupid, irresponsible person in general. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wolfriverjoe 1,486 #87 September 24, 2015 entaGolerk, NOW i get why everyone is overreacting to my thread, but it is not a good way to tell someone why he shouldnt downsize. I respect and listen to a calm persons with good arguments much more, than someone who tells my im going to die and post videos of ppl. almost did. I feel most of you are extremely biased and think everyone who want´s to downsize is a stupid, irresponsible person in general. No. When the consequences of a bad decision are as serious as they are in skydiving, people will tell you the truth. It may be unpleasant, but it's the truth. The video of Sangi's accident is a stark reality of what can happen. If you don't understand that, you really need to step away from the sport for a bit. You got a lot of "You're going to die" comments because far, far too many people have died jumping canopies that were too small for them. There have been more than a few people who died under small canopies who knew what they were doing, and just made the 'wrong mistake at the wrong time' and didn't survive the error. People are blunt on here, going so far as to "predict" a date to make it clear that this is serious. As was noted above, too many younger people are "invincible." They say that they understand the risk. They say that they are willing to accept the consequences. But they don't really. They truly don't believe that it can happen to them. They won't admit that to anyone else. They may not even admit it to themselves. Your attitude and comments are very typical of a 'young hotshot" who is "above average" (or at least believes so). What is known as "Madd Skilz." Whether or not you really are that type, I don't know. All we have to go by is your written word. So the reaction here is typical. A lot of that type get hurt. Some just have a close call. And often quit after that, saying something like "I really didn't realize it could happen to me." Some get killed."There are NO situations which do not call for a French Maid outfit." Lucky McSwervy "~ya don't GET old by being weak & stupid!" - Airtwardo Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
yoink 321 #88 September 24, 2015 virgin-burnerdude, dont EVER ask a question about downsizing on here. shitstorm waiting to happen. That's just bullshit. You know as well as I do that what prompts reactions like this are when people are making stupid decisions but are displaying arrogance when justifiying them. The 'I'm exceptional', or 'I understand the risks' argument just doesn't hold water. You've made some pretty questionable decisions about your canopy choices in the past if I remember correctly, and weren't exactly receptive to those comments at the time - even though you'd just been giving Sangi the exact same advice. Maybe that's colouring your perspective about the feedback possible on the board. I can think of several threads in the last month about people wanting to downsize inappropriately which didn't end up like this one. Again - it's the attitude which brings on the shitstorm. That's a learning point. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,145 #89 September 24, 2015 QuoteI feel most of you are extremely biased and think everyone who want´s to downsize is a stupid, irresponsible person in general. Yes, it's easy to get that feeling. That's a problem with online forums. You have people sitting at keyboards wanting to get their own particular viewpoint across. Typing is work, and getting nuance into your words without being face to face is very difficult. So often people will SHOUT, or use easily misunderstood short answers. You need to take a grain of salt with some of the words used here. When controversial subjects come up it often gets rough in here. And yes, most of us are extremely biased against rapid downsizing. Many of the people who taught us to be that way were in fact irresponsible. Although not stupid, over the years I've come to realize that there are only a very few stupid people in the sport. They get weeded out very quickly.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
catfishhunter 2 #90 September 24, 2015 enta this isn't tiddly winks in kindergarten. No one is going to be nice and sweet and hold your hand. That isn't how skydivers are. If you want cuddly responses go to the knitting board. You haven't been around long enough to understand or experience the gallows humor skydivers (got to) have. BSBD comes from this. Bounce Bingo comes from this. First one there gets the good shit comes from this. This sport isn't a joke. Your are a dead man once you leave that aircraft 100% dead if you don't do everything right. There is no time for anyone to be nice and sweet when they think your fucking up. You will understand after watching a friend or two die or get busted up really bad. Everyone that has posted has "watched" countless people go in. Many many many people on here and even one of the most beloved moderators Tonto went in under a perfectly good canopy. So excuse me when I say FUCK YOUR FEELINGS. Man the fuck up this isn't fucking tiddlywinks... :) Much Love bro and blueskies! MAKE EVERY DAY COUNT Life is Short and we never know how long we are going to have. We must live life to the fullest EVERY DAY. Everything we do should have a greater purpose. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Bluhdow 31 #91 September 24, 2015 likestojumpwhen you femur in, you better not start a GoFundMe, because you certainly won't deserve it. This is the only reasonable response to these threads. Everyone else is wasting their time.Apex BASE #1816 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #92 September 24, 2015 yoink ***dude, dont EVER ask a question about downsizing on here. shitstorm waiting to happen. That's just bullshit. You know as well as I do that what prompts reactions like this are when people are making stupid decisions but are displaying arrogance when justifiying them. The 'I'm exceptional', or 'I understand the risks' argument just doesn't hold water. You've made some pretty questionable decisions about your canopy choices in the past if I remember correctly, and weren't exactly receptive to those comments at the time - even though you'd just been giving Sangi the exact same advice. Maybe that's colouring your perspective about the feedback possible on the board. I can think of several threads in the last month about people wanting to downsize inappropriately which didn't end up like this one. Again - it's the attitude which brings on the shitstorm. That's a learning point. not sure where you got the "you've made questionable canopy-decisions part" off or from. got a used rig with a 150 sabre, next step was a 119er safire2 with the shiny, custom-made micron to go with it. at 250 jumps. gained a bit of weight, dropped a lot, bought baserigs with 265ers in there. not thinking about downsizing anytime soon. as i havent jumped much lately due to a work-accident that almost left me killed or seriously disabled. but hasnt. so, better get your facts straight, spit out what bothers you or whatelse is on your mind. if i could read the crystal-ball, i'd be living in my fancy penthouse i can jump from since i've won the lottery or.. yea, well, sorry to say, just shut your trap. and i mean that in the friendliest way possible! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
virgin-burner 1 #93 September 24, 2015 and i've been jumping my current rig since 2009 or 2010. all without incidents, except the one botched landing i've saved myself from anything than an injured ego, as i described further up. i think you miss-took me for someone else, but whatever, sent me a PM, or just give me a shout phonewise, i'm sure we can clear this up! no hard feelings dude! “Some may never live, but the crazy never die.” -Hunter S. Thompson "No. Try not. Do... or do not. There is no try." -Yoda Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,145 #94 September 24, 2015 Quotenext step was a 119er safire2 with the shiny, custom-made micron to go with it. at 250 jumps. Maybe you're just having some fun? Because that would be very questionable.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Kalrigan 6 #95 September 24, 2015 enta I feel most of you are extremely biased and think everyone who want´s to downsize is a stupid, irresponsible person in general. Well to be fair, in your first post you said you have only 80 jumps on the 150, and looking into a pretty forgiving canopy Sabre 2 135 that you will load at 1.46 wing loading with only 200 jumps. See where the idea of "stupid, irresponsible person" came from? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,822 #96 September 24, 2015 Some notes on your replies: >land safely downwind - no downwinds so far That's going to be important. Landing downwind presents a very different sight picture - the sort of picture you will get under a smaller canopy. Also you will someday have to land your smaller canopy downwind and you need the experience of landing a larger canopy downwind. >land reliably, standing up, within a 10 meter circle - almost So that's something to work on. >initiate a high performance landing with double front risers and front riser turn to landing - Nope Then why do you want a smaller canopy? You can get much more performance out of your present canopy, and that performance will be cheaper and safer. >-land standing up on slight uphills and downhills - it´s like netherlands on my DZ OK. I realized from that list I have to add some more basic requirements, like jumping at places other than your home DZ. Again, not something you want to do for the first time on a smaller canopy. Different DZ's have different uphills and downhills, sight pictures on landing, different altitude cues, different issues with object-induced turbulence, different issues with traffic patterns and different rules. Learning all those things are critical to any canopy progression. >land with rear risers - Wouldn´t do this if not necessary. It may be necessary some day due to a toggle problem, and you won't be able to get best performance out of your canopy without knowing how to do this. It teaches you a lot about how the wing responds to inputs. Honestly it sounds like you have about a year and ~200 jumps to get to the point where you have mastered your current canopy. At that point you will be landing much faster (if you want to) surfing longer and having a lot more fun with the canopy. So you may not want to downsize anyway, but if you do you'll be starting from a solid foundation of skills. Here's a quick example of how NOT to do it - Years ago I was going to demo a Xaos-27 95 (smallest canopy I had jumped up until that point.) I decided to do it at the Solstice Boogie in Alaska, since it was sea level, grass landing area, steady winds, large LZ - basically perfect conditions. And at 4000 jumps, the last 200 on a Crossfire 99, I figured I had the experience. Got the canopy, hooked it up, manifested, went to the loading area, and started to load the plane when it pulled up. The engine started to wind down and the pilot got out. "Sorry guys, I'm exhausted," he said. We were aghast. "But we have plenty of time before sunset!" someone said. "It's freaking 10:30PM!" the pilot said. Oh yeah. Alaska solstice. So we went off to have a beer or two and get dinner. The next morning was the Alaska state record attempt - two Cessnas and a Caravan. We loaded up and took off to try to attempt the record. It wasn't until after takeoff that I realized I still had the Xaos in my rig. Well, I rationalized, I was breaking off high and conditions were still good. We did the jump, I opened up - and found myself about five miles from the DZ over Wasilla. There was a field behind a local store that looked open, but when I was on final I realized that the grass was actually about six feet high. I landed and slid about 50 yards through the grass, capturing every seed along the way in my jumpsuit. I limped back several miles to the DZ. I was lucky to have not been seriously hurt. The story above is to illustrate that any claims about "I'll be careful under the new canopy until I learn it!" are not always possible. You WILL have to land out, downwind, downhill, and in turbulent air. You WILL have to turn low to avoid people and things. (Hopefully not on the first jump like I did, but you don't get to choose.) Best to learn how to do all those things under a canopy you know well, rather than rely on luck. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
decompresion 2 #97 September 24, 2015 Not directed at Mr. Troll (aka enta). Directed at other would-be "400 jumps velo guys" that pop up all the time here... entaI don´t regret opening this thread,because i got a lot of input am a troll FIFY entaI don´t say i am a fucking beautiful snowflake out of thousands, i say i think i am just a bit more talendet than some others (and i believe that) Now that you make that clear...my apologies. Why are you such a killjoy pussy? At 1.46WL you are barely getting any performance on a Sabre2. Did mommy not pack and balls in your lunch? entaThat doesn´t mean i think i can progress super fast and come away with it. It means that you don't think at all. entaI wasn´t aware i would meet a bunch of angry people predicting my death just because of a question i ask. No one is angry because of the question. Some are a bit bored with having to deal with the fallout and "I told you so". The most cardinal sin you committed here, beyond your horribly arrogant posts, beyond the fact that you are a troll, beyond the fact that you remain completely anonymous, beyond the fact that you don't say who these mysterious rigger, DZO, Instructor and S&TA are, beyond the fact that you don't give a clue as to who's canopy course you took, beyond the fact that you have not posted a single video of your awesome landings....Beyond all that, you have failed to use the search function to read the many threads that are ridiculously similar to this one. entaThe main reason i post again, is that i think most of the reactions are really really dangerous to newer skydivers, because some of the reactions are so harsh, that most will think you are complety nutts and won´t follow your advice because of this.because I am a troll and had I simply looked at similar threads I would have known that the backlash is completely expected and trolls love to stir shit up. Again, I am a troll FIFY, again entaIf you really want to help people new to this sport and new to this forum, don´t fucking freak out, nobody is helped with that. If the "scared straight" approach will not work with you: 1) I just want the name of the pilot, dropzone, instructor, DZO and S&TA who are allowing you to jump that gear. I don't care if you survive or not: they should know better and I want to avoid the dropzone when you are jumping. If you care so little about your life who knows what you will do to mine. 2) At 200 jumps you might be fine. PD makes a good canopy. Deep flare. Into the wind. Wing level. Wear a helmet. Stay away from anything/anyone else in the landing area. 3) Insurance ID card in the jumpsuit. Signed incident report at the DZ. You ICE contact info is updated. Car keys, tent, bags are in a known place. Pre-filled permission to sell your rig (unless the paramedics cut it off you). 4) Post pictures of your x-rays. You will probably be fine. Hope you don't kill anyone else.There are no dangerous dives Only dangerous divers Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
stayhigh 2 #98 September 24, 2015 1.4 wingloading at 200 jumps isn't all that much. Interwebbers needs to stop over reacting. I've seen a kid who rode velo at 200 jumps, loaded at 2.2+. He survived, and racked up thousands of jumps before he stopped jumping. Do what your heart tells you to do. No one knows your canopy skill. Don't let others dictate your future.Bernie Sanders for President 2016 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gowlerk 2,145 #99 September 24, 2015 stayhighDo what your heart tells you to do. No one knows your canopy skill. Don't let others dictate your future. Then there is stayhigh. Please note that he no longer jumps. That means he won't be at the DZ to help clean up the blood. But he is right about one thing. It's up to you to decide.Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
enta 0 #100 September 24, 2015 Kalrigan*** I feel most of you are extremely biased and think everyone who want´s to downsize is a stupid, irresponsible person in general. Well to be fair, in your first post you said you have only 80 jumps on the 150, and looking into a pretty forgiving canopy Sabre 2 135 that you will load at 1.46 wing loading with only 200 jumps. See where the idea of "stupid, irresponsible person" came from? Not at all, because I came here the get advice about that and guess what i ask because i don´t know better. In the beginning you go down very quick, in my case from 230 to 150 in a short amount of time and nobody gave a fuck about that, so i think okay that is complety in the green area. Now I thought about getting 1 step smaller because new rig, not because I feel I mastered the 150. I thought, okay i´m not shure if 80 jumps is enough to go down, better ask in the forum so i did. I don´t get what the problem with that, even tough the skydive assocation in my country recommends a wl up to 1,5 from 200 jumps+ I did not know if it is a tiny bit more dangerous or complety stupid. Could have been much easier to tell me its god damn stupid, but obviously, most are not capable of that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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