pepperell tree landing being billed 10grand

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They are billing him $10,000 for the rescue!
This is ridiculous, I wonder If they also bill people rescued in fires if a person was negligent and lit a candle, or the car accident victim that drove irresponsibly?


http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/26392053/detail.html

I just finished reading through most of this thread. I didn't see a breakdown of the departments involved. How many personnel were "Highly trained," as the article said? How many were volunteers? The highly trained personnel would have been paid the same amount if they had remained @the firehouse, no? They don't charge for other, more mundane rescues. The jumper's alti malfunctioned, & he didn't catch it because he's still new-ish. He wasn't committing any crime. That DZ pays their share of taxes like every other business in that area. Those services are included in them. This wreaks of his being targeted as being part of a fringe group. Plenty of dingbats driving minivans are far more negligent than this jumper was. They never see a bill.

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I'm torn on this one, because in many ways I agree but I also think it is a slippery slope. I'd be outraged if they charged to put out a fire at a home or business. They are still having to use their time and equipment and resources.

So where do you draw the line between what government/public services charge for and what they don't charge for? When is it part of what the tax payers pay for them to do, and when is it a service they are going to bill you for?



Z

Simple answer - did he pay his taxes? If he did - the Emergency Services are there to help him in an accident. Unless they are goinjg to start charging for cutting people out of cars after an accident or putting out a house fire. Does a lost hiker get billed for a S&R attempt?

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Simple answer - did he pay his taxes? If he did - the Emergency Services are there to help him in an accident.

What taxes? City tax to the city that provided the rescue? Yeah, the taxes should cover that. City tax and federal tax to a city and a federal gov that contributed nothing to the rescue? I'm not sure how you figure the one thing should cover the other.

I live in a city that will NEVER have to pay to rescue a skydiver from anywhere (unless it's a really bad demo jumper) becasue the nearest DZ is 50 miles away. The city that DZ is in happens to be a tiny little farming community in the middle of nowhere. It doesn't have a GA airport, we jump out of a private field that's just a converted corn/soybean field. So this tiny community, with it's tiny little tax base is supposed to foot the bill for every skydiver that gets themselves into trouble? I'm not sure how that adds up.

I do feel that it needs to be declared ahead of time that the local police/fire/rescue reserve the right to charge a fair and equitable fee for services rendered. Notify the DZ, who will then post a conspicuous sign or include a blurb in their waiver. The jumpers agree to be responsible for the 'excessive' part of any rescue that creates 'excessive' costs to the city, and the city agrees to only enforce the policy when costs become excessive and to only charge enough to put the costs to the city back in the 'not so excessive' range. Both parties agree to split the cost of an independent auditor to review the itemized bill from the city, and make any corrections deemed neccesary.

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I've seen this happen before and it's a bad idea. If they are going to issue bills for services then they should not get a penny of taxes to support their services.

I agree on this one, your taxes are already paying for the firemen, cops, etc...........

The chief stated "Massachusetts has no statewide guidelines on rescue billing, and chiefs said these bills are rare, but handled on a case-by-case basis."

So they send an arbitrary bill to the skydiver, Sounds like B.S. to me!

Knowing this, if you landed in a tree at Pepperell would you climb down yourself and how many people in the future will do just that?

I don't know why this makes me so upset it's not even my bill but as a paramedic, skydiver and taxpayer it pisses me off!

Sales Tax - here it is 8.25%
Most states charge state taxes
Some cities and some counties charge taxes as well.

They are EMERGENCY SERVICES - Not "When we feel like it, and if you are willing to pay giant fee" services

Something else that should be looked into is if this Fire Rescue unit has ever received a federal grant. That will open up a whole new can of worms. The fire chief might be pissing in his own Cheerios.

Lawyers are going to love this.
Did they ask him if he wanted to be rescued?
Did they inform him of the cost, in an itemized statement?
Then he can sue the DZ for not informing him of the cost of tree, water. wire, off airport landing. Not to mention the cost of a bucket to carry his sorry ass off in if he went in.
He could sue the guy that put that tree there and didn't properly make it as a skydiving hazard.
Just think of the new warning labels on gear. A list of what it will cost to save your butt if you land somewhere that's not the designated area. All in four or five languages. "with circles and arrows and a discription on the back"

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i seriously doubt they needed 21 people to get 1 guy out of a tree.

Quite right!

The extras showed up because they were bored/saw it as an opportunity to get some training, even if just by watching others do it.

The guy that got rescued should charge the city for providing the training opportunity.

Hi Devil

Just what I was thinking If they wanted to they could have just used the "rescue" as a training exercise.

Now that done the real deal will they still do the scheduled training exercise next ........so that they can keep current.

Lesson learned . The DZ or a friend needs to video the rescue just in case it goes to court.18 guys/gals watching and 3 guys working.

Right.

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i seriously doubt they needed 21 people to get 1 guy out of a tree.

Quite right!

The extras showed up because they were bored/saw it as an opportunity to get some training, even if just by watching others do it.

The guy that got rescued should charge the city for providing the training opportunity.

Hi Devil

Just what I was thinking If they wanted to they could have just used the "rescue" as a training exercise.

Now that done the real deal will they still do the scheduled training exercise next ........so that they can keep current.

Lesson learned . The DZ or a friend needs to video the rescue just in case it goes to court.18 guys/gals watching and 3 guys working.

Right.

have you ever worked on a large scale rescue operation? im willing to guess not, could be wrong. but for all those that haven't ill explain why there's so many people "standing around", just because there's only 3 guys out of 18 working at that given second, it dosent mean that they are they only 3 that have worked or will work throughout the day, many pieces of equipment need set up, broken down, and many positions need filled, like a safety officer to make sure everything is setup according to specs and no one is doing anything stupid, a guy to oversee and command the whole thing (incident commander) then a host of people to implement said plan formed by the IC. it is VERY tiring and labor full work. then you need more people on scene to transport the guy and depending on how bad he is that could be anywhere from one EMT and one paramedic to a EMT driver and 4 medics, ive used both those scnearios and every combo in between, and trust me i LOATHE having more than one other person in the back of my truck unless its ABSOLUTELY necessary, and trust me it has taken 4 medics at once killing ourselves to keep a single person alive. then you need the fire trucks and their personnel, most likely one engine, and one ladder truck, and possibly a heavy rescue, depending on how many people they crew per unit, anywhere from 6 total to 12 total fire people. and if those people are USAR trained, which is the "special operations" of the fire service, then guess what, you gotta get those people there who can do high angle rescue pickoff like needed in this case. since the exact amount of damage to the person cant be fully known till they get him to the ground and examined by that paramedic waiting at the truck doing nothing, its good to play it safe an dhave the extra hands available, because the second you dont, the guy that is alert and talking to you will all of a sudden become unresponsive apenic, and pulseless because he had a laceration to his femoral artery that was being held shut by the pressure of him in his harness, or something off the wall like that. i would MUCH rather have more people than i need than be up to my elbows in shit, behind the eightball with a crashing patient that could have been saved. . . well either way, you get the picture.

just food for thought.

Hi Mutumbo

I've never been around any of that stuff. I don't have any training and don't need to watch the show.

No reason to be a lookie loo. The most i've done is run to the closest house, shop etc and yell call 911, call 911. While waiting for the ambulance out in the country I've walked to the road to make sure the ambulance doesn't go to the wrong house.

We've gotten a few bills for ambulance service from the local FD. OLD is a bitch The bill was twice what my insurance would pay.

I just called the chief's staff. Wined and was told no sweat wait for the second bill than write a letter saying we couldn't afford to pay what our insurance wouldn't cover.

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Hi Mutumbo

I've never been around any of that stuff. I don't have any training and don't need to watch the show.

No reason to be a lookie loo. The most i've done is run to the closest house, shop etc and yell call 911, call 911. While waiting for the ambulance out in the country I've walked to the road to make sure the ambulance doesn't go to the wrong house.

We've gotten a few bills for ambulance service from the local FD. OLD is a bitch The bill was twice what my insurance would pay.

I just called the chief's staff. Wined and was told no sweat wait for the second bill than write a letter saying we couldn't afford to pay what our insurance wouldn't cover.

will you be the spearhead and posterboy of my new ad campaign against that crap?? pleeeaaassseee!! ill give you a dollar, its all i really have

Yeah, sorry, if my post earlier came off as being an ass, really wasnt trying to be, just explaining what goes into a rescue like that .

Alright you asshole skydivers.
You wanna interrupt my poker game at the station and make me actually have to get off my ass and do some real work to earn my tax-paid paycheck?
Do you? DO you?

Yeah, well, I'm bringin' 42 of my closest friends to watch and oh, btw, here's a bill for $10K for your troubles.

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Alright you asshole skydivers.
You wanna interrupt my poker game at the station and make me actually have to get off my ass and do some real work to earn my tax-paid paycheck?
Do you? DO you?

Yeah, well, I'm bringin' 42 of my closest friends to watch and oh, btw, here's a bill for $10K for your troubles.

you do realize that MOST places expense bills are FAR from covered by taxes alone. . .

They get cats out of trees every day for free. Next time you see a skydiver hanging from a tree throw him a cat. Then call the fire dept.

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1) Rescue service should be free

In general, I think that is a great idea... however here in Colorado I don't think that it's feasible, given the high volume of search and rescue missions. However, here we can buy a Colorado Outdoor Recreation Search and Rescue (CORSAR) Card for only $3/yr and it covers any needed search and rescue via fund donations.

i like that idea! pretty neat

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1) Rescue service should be free

In general, I think that is a great idea... however here in Colorado I don't think that it's feasible, given the high volume of search and rescue missions. However, here we can buy a Colorado Outdoor Recreation Search and Rescue (CORSAR) Card for only $3/yr and it covers any needed search and rescue via fund donations.

Does that mean that the search team will ask your family if they had bought a card, and if not they would let you know what it would cost to conduct a search?

The link doesn't work.

ETA: Never mind, the fund probably finances all rescues.

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1) Rescue service should be free

In general, I think that is a great idea... however here in Colorado I don't think that it's feasible, given the high volume of search and rescue missions. However, here we can buy a Colorado Outdoor Recreation Search and Rescue (CORSAR) Card for only $3/yr and it covers any needed search and rescue via fund donations.

Does that mean that the search team will ask your family if they had bought a card, and if not they would let you know what it would cost to conduct a search?

The link doesn't work.

ETA: Never mind, the fund probably finances all rescues.

ooops... fixed it. Colorado Outdoor Recreation Search and Rescue (CORSAR) Card

I think the fund would only cover the individuals with a card.

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Let's try to keep the discussion on the skydiving aspects of this and away from politics, please.

Okay...


When skydiving near trees, always have a helmet, gloves and a credit card!

Hey install a Personal Lowering Device on your rig... I have used them.. they work

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you do realize that MOST places expense bills are FAR from covered by taxes alone. . .

Only becuase MOST places seem to think they need a safety officer AND an incident commander, both overseaing twice as many people as need to be on the scene.

I do understand what you are saying about having more people than you need is better than being caught with out enough. That does not change the fact that most all government funded aggencies run on nearly four times the needed budget.

Fire protection was originally handled by what was “Fire Companies”. The were organized and paid for by Insurance Co. When you paid for fire insurance you were given a plaque to put on you building. If your building caught fire all “Fire Companies” would respond. They would check out your plaque and the Fire Company from your insurance carried would put out the fire. If you had no plaque they would let it burn. People started to complain and the local powers started paying for the cost of putting out fires on uninsured buildings. This was the start of Government paying for items that benefited the individual and not the community as a whole. Soon all fire protection was taken over by the Cities. Each City determined what level of protection they would provide and the levels varied greatly. Over the years Fire Depts. became responsible for more than just fire suppression. These add tasked involved rescue, the development of Para Medic programs, building inspections, public education programs, hazardous materials handling and clean up, design and upkeep of water system and maintenance and repair of Dept. apparatus and equipment. And this is just the things I can think of at the moment.
During the time when the Cities were adding more tasks to the Fire Depts. they were looking for ways to cut the overall budget. This required the Fire Chiefs to do more with less equipment and fewer people. After over 100 years of not charging for services the Fire Depts. started charging a user fee for various types of services. They vary with the City but can include fees for Para Medic services, building inspections and rescues resulting for recreational activity. The reasons behind most of this are to assure the equipment and personnel will be there when it is a life or death call. You may not like the direction things are going but it is a fact of life. If you expect government to care for you from birth to death it is going to cost. The only other alternative is to be responsible for yourself.
And to all those who posted on how many people it takes, if you have never been involve in a high angle rescue you are talking out your ass. When you know nothing about the topic it is usually better to keep quiet.

Sparky

Hi Sparky

We live in the PNW the DZ was located in the sticks.

They also had experienced tree climbers and all the gear spur's belts etc, Basically they were prepared to do their own rescue. We're talking 100' trees and lots of them.

Back in the bay unless a person bounced most injuries were simple broken legs, ankles etc. No cutting of rigs jump suits and all that shit. We took that shit off and took the jumper to the hospital ourselves. Dr asks what happened, Fell out of a tree.

Now with the broken pelvis's, backs necks etc A ambulance and chopper are SOP. Back in the day Jumping rounds wasn't that bad as long as a jumper wasn't a real big boy.

The walk back to the DZ deal with it or don't jump.

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And to all those who posted on how many people it takes, if you have never been involve in a high angle rescue you are talking out your ass. When you know nothing about the topic it is usually better to keep quiet.

Sparky

i couldn't agree more

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Only becuase MOST places seem to think they need a safety officer AND an incident commander, both overseaing twice as many people as need to be on the scene.

you only need to separate the 2 on bigger calls. on a SMALL call where one person needs a pickoff it still takes about 5 people AT LEAST, and that dosent include the transport personnel. and thats in practice when you KNOW all you have to do is a SIMPLE pickoff.

I haven't had to be attended by emergency services as a result of a skydiving accident/incident. (apparently to my good fortune) I shall endeavor to avoid it in the future based on the Commonwealth of Massachusetts' Taxachusetts' desire to offset their operating budgets on the backs of the unlucky and clumsy.

(the Mass-NH border is about 1/4 mile from the end of the runway. If I think I'm gonna land in a tree, I'll see if I can't pick one on the north side of the border..)

Something to consider is the potential chilling effect this may have on other DZs. The next nearest DZ, Jumptown, is over in Orange, MA. What happens when the town of Orange takes a cue from Dunstable and says "Yeah, uh, that last run is gonna cost you guys $1000.."

Mind you, the Pepperell DZ is in the town of Pepperell. Dunstable is across the Nashua river from the DZ. So no matter if Pepperell pays taxes to Pepperell, they don't really pay it to Dunstable, and they sure as hell don't pay it to multiple towns that participate in the technical rescue compact.

So WTF? "Sorry, but since your town doesn't pay us taxes, we're not going to send our technical rescue team to you.."

After a few (maybe as many as a dozen) major lost hiker searches in the White Mountains, the NH Department of Fish & Game started charging people who they felt were particularly negligent or careless in their preparation and conduct of their hikes, climbs, etc. Now, in the last few years, I've seen some pretty stupid hikers just wander into the wilds completely unprotected, without supplies or equipment, and carrying little more than a cell phone for the purposes of self rescue (read that again: a cell phone for self-rescue is not really a self-rescue. Thats "I'll let someone else pull my cookies out of the fire in the event I fuck up"). Those people need to be smacked around and presented with a bill for the 60-100 searchers, helicopter fuel, etc, if they survive and are found.

However, I think it was last year when a teen went missing in the White Mountains, and after search he was found, safe & healthy. He'd gotten misplaced (aka "lost") but had sufficient clothing and equipment that he was able to stay warm throughout the night and he either got back to the trail or remained in place till rescuers found him. I think he was an Eagle Scout, so he had some knowledge and it was just a navigation error that stuck him in the woods overnight.

Now, should this kid get charged? I think you can say "OK, that sounds like a simple accident to me."

Should the group of 4 hikers from the "flatland" who picked the wrong trail, carried no food, water, extra clothing or flashlights, be charged? I think so, because they failed to exercise due caution for the activity they were undertaking.

But then, its "who gets to determine whether it was just dumb luck, or simple negligence?" The Fire Chief? Pffft. Thats a hazard.

NIN
D-19617, AFF-I '19