DB Cooper

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Ground plan? Good point. I think McCoy took a taxi, but that option wasnt available to Cooper. I have no idea how Cooper planned to exit the landing and get transportation back to civilization without arousing suspicion. That is a real serious puzzler.

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I discussed this in the other thread, but not in detail probably. Duane told me once "Here's the keys - if I am not here by 1PM, go back to XXX and I will find you."

This happened in 1981 or 82...I am not sure what he was up to - I didn't understand what he meant or why he was telling me that. He did get back before 1PM and we left fast....like the devil was after him.

This is exactly what he would have told another individual who may not have known what he was up to - making this person an unwilling accomplice. That is what he did to me in another circumstance except that it took me yrs to figure it out.

He knew the area like the back of his hand - hiding places abounded - he knew how to keep out of sight and how to get to advantage points. He utilized clothing taken from an open shed left hanging there by the owner - work clothes - (cover-alls to be specific).

377 - someone told me that you are not just someone interested in this crime and that you have used me for information...is that true? I hope not, but at this point I just don't care...I am tired and I have to get this told. I am being told that Duane is being completely ignored as a suspect - and that the Mayfield people have used me for information for a book. I don't know how much truth there is in this and I don't care...I just need help in finding the information I need -- right now that is Edna and Zona. The FBI has ignored the employment history given to me by a prior wife. How much more can they ignore.

On to other things:

"How certain are we of the radar track, given that no tapes exist?"

Great question! I wish we had an answer. I chased down a lot of leads on the USAF SAGE radar system that was used to vector the F 106 fighters to intercept the NWA 727 that night. I am convinced that we are at a dead end on SAGE, for technnical reasons. That still leaves ATC surveillance radar. I personally think the 727 map plot is wrong to the extent it makes it impossible to have the found money end up where it did by natural means. We need to know exactly how the aircraft track map was prepared, by who, using what references to assure perfect radar plot to ground map registration, etc.

Clock synch is an excellent point, but believe it or not, the old analog plug in clocks that used 60 hz synchronous motors were VERY accurate, provided that they were set properly and left plugged in. The electric utilities kept a very accurate 60 hz AC frequency on the grids and a synchronous clock motor is slaved to that 60 hz just by its design, not by any fancy quartz crystal electronic circuits or radio receivers. Still a couple of minutes could mean 6 miles or more, so it is an issue because we cannot be sure that all clocks were set right or that the exact times at which things were said on VHF radio were accurately transcribed.

The pilot in me wonders where the B727 of Cooper fame is today?
I looked for a serial number on the net, but came up empty.

Any with info on this?

BASE359

"377 - someone told me that you are not just someone interested in this crime and that you have used me for information...is that true?"

Jo,

Whoever told you that is wrong. I have no axe to grind or commercial interest in anything connected with Cooper. The case has fascinated me since my youth. I have jumped the Navy 26 conical, jumped from a jet airliner and have other relevant knowledge such as radar technology. It is fun to speculate about what happened that night and how we can collectively solve the mystery. That's it, nothing more.

You need to stop suspecting that anyone who disagrees with you is taking advantage of you or plotting against you. I plead not guilty.

Sincerely,
377

[The pilot in me wonders where the B727 of Cooper fame is today?
I looked for a serial number on the net, but came up empty.

Any with info on this?

JSBIRD,

It died the death many of these planes did, It went to a scrap yard I don't remember the state other than not the boneyard in AZ. It was stripped and parted out. Hell, some of the parts could still be in the air somwhere.

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You need to stop suspecting that anyone who disagrees with you

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I am the kind who has to ask - rather than brood about it - I blurt it out. Thank you for the answer and I hope my asking did not offend you.

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[The pilot in me wonders where the B727 of Cooper fame is today?
I looked for a serial number on the net, but came up empty.

Any with info on this?

JSBIRD,

It died the death many of these planes did, It went to a scrap yard I don't remember the state other than not the boneyard in AZ. It was stripped and parted out. Hell, some of the parts could still be in the air somwhere.

http://www.mypix.biz/natesnotes/db.htm
What Happened to the 727?

The actual Boeing 727-051 used by Northwest that day was delivered on April 22, 1965 and registered as N467US with the FAA (it is shown in the photo above).

Some time before 1982 it was sold to Piedmont Air and re-registered as N383N.
It was acquired by Key Airlines in May of 1985 as N29KA.

It was then acquired by WorldCorp after Key went under in 1993.
According to a former member of the Key Air Operations team: "The Cooper story was well known to us as was the fact that we owned the "Cooper" B727.

Sadly, the aircraft was flown for one last time (empty) to the "scrap yard" in 1993 where it was as we say 'turned into beer cans.'
My boss (VP/GM of Key at the time) still has the aircraft identification plate from its last flight."

Maybe Cooper had a wet suit on under his suit. Cut off at the knees and arms like a "Shorty" of today.
Maybe he had a different pair of shoes in his brief case.
Along with a compass and some road flares that looked like a bomb.
There probably would have been some reward money, so why go to the trouble of burying him if found? Think of the story you could sell.
And I asked a few threads/posts ago. Wasn't there a "He never jumped and hid on the plane" theory?

"There probably would have been some reward money, so why go to the trouble of burying him if found?"

Simple answer is that you thought you could make more by burying him and keeping the money than you could by preserving all the evidence, calling the police and hoping for a reward.

I have no idea what kind of agriculture flourished in that WA/ORE area in 1971, but I know if Cooper did a no pull over rural Humboldt County CA during 1971, there is a zero chance anybody would be contacting the authorities to come over to the impact site and have a look around.

"Maybe Cooper had a wet suit on under his suit. Cut off at the knees and arms like a "Shorty" of today.
Maybe he had a different pair of shoes in his brief case.
Along with a compass and some road flares that looked like a bomb."

All that is possible, but he'd have been sweating noticeably if he had even a shorty wetsuit on underneath his business attire.

Road flares would have been a terrible idea for illumination due to the huge heat signature emitted. If any FLIR (thermal imaging systems) equipped aircraft were looking for him that night, flares would look like thermal beacons. FLIRS were not common in 1971 but they certainly did exist. Hughes Aircraft made them and so did other companies. I have used FLIRS made by Hughes and by Raytheon. Anything warmer than the surroundings shows up as a noticeable hot target. The bigger the temp DIFFERENCE, the better it shows up. Sulphur road flares have a huge delta T over winter ambient outdoor object temps. People have a much lower delta T than anything burning, but are still detectable even when hiding in brush that obscures them visually. You can literally see the heat they emit unless they are 100% blocked by thermally opaque material.

A compass wouldnt have been of too much use unless he knew where he was. Knowing which way is North isnt all that helpful if you are in an unknown location.

A different pair of shoes would have been a great idea, but more stuff to carry. More suitable jump clothes and jump shoes (parka and hiking boots?)wouldn't have drawn much attention, but perhaps he needed to look like a businessman rather than an outdoorsman when he landed.

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Road flares would have been a terrible idea for illumination due to the huge heat signature emitted. If any FLIR (thermal imaging systems) equipped aircraft were looking for him that night, flares would look like thermal beacons. FLIRS were not common in 1971 but they certainly did exist.

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Not ONE word has ever been uttered about thermal imaging being used to search for Cooper...NOT ONE WORD. Yes, it may have been in existence but not available in a manner that would have assisted the Cooper Hunt. Would have to have been done from the air and required many planes with this equipment available - now this is too far out for 1971. I am a Whuffo, a woman and have dumb blond syndrome --- but his does not SOUND REASONABLE.

Jo,

Cops didnt have FLIRS in 71 but military definitely did, I know that first hand. It was pretty classified back then. There were several kinds, real time thermal imagers for helicopters and COIN aircraft and line mapping recon systems carried by spy and recon planes. Those line mappers produced records that were looked at by ground based analysts, not pilots or crewmen. The real time FLIRS were extremely useful in combat and it was important to keep their capabilities secret.

Today, if you have about $7500, you can buy a FLIR, not a great one but a usable one. The military FLIRS were very sophisticated and used supercooled detector elements for enhanced thermal sensitivity and reduced noise. The civilian ones use uncooled detectors with much lower performance.

If Cooper used flares and there were FLIRS flying in the area while they were burning, he would have shown up, believe me. Even today chemical flares are fired as decoys by planes threatened by IR seeking missles. They are a great IR target.

The F 106s scrambled to chase NWA 305 had IRST gear, IRST=infrared search and track. It was useless for ground work and served only to alert the pilot to a hot jet exhaust in its field of view and allow him to track it. It did not present a video type picture.

Probably more than you or anyone on this forum ever wanted to know about thermal imaging.

377

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Seems like the FBI and everyone else is entirely ignoring the fact that Tina said Cooper was wearing ankle shoes - why would she use that teminology?

A loafer is a loafer and is never referred to as an ankle shoe...Ankle shoes - the only referrence for this is ankle boot. A dress boot that comes to the ankle. For God's sake someone think. Please think - she spent the most time - she said ankle shoe - that is NOT a loafer.

Here is a picture of what at least one person thinks is a mans ankle shoe.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MENS-PIERRE-CARDIN-LEATHER-ELASTIC-GORE-ANKLE-SHOES-10_W0QQitemZ350020843540QQihZ022QQcategoryZ63850QQcmdZViewItem

In case of problems with the website item disappearing I am attaching a picture from that listing

1971 - what I know as an ankle boot came a little higher than that with a zipper on the inside and the heel was not as high...it is also referred to in 1971 as Ankle shoe in the Sears catolog. The pic you sent seems to be from an earlier date - I don't know how one goes about referencing old 1971 Sear Cat. pics but there must be one. This is when I wish I had saved an old catologue just for the hell of it.

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1971 - what I know as an ankle boot came a little higher than that with a zipper on the inside and the heel was not as high...it is also referred to in 1971 as Ankle shoe in the Sears catolog. The pic you sent seems to be from an earlier date - I don't know how one goes about referencing old 1971 Sear Cat. pics but there must be one. This is when I wish I had saved an old catologue just for the hell of it.

lots of ankle boots on the web, see attached picture

I believe he has left us - perhaps he thinks there is no more to be learned:

As some of you know I have been seaching for a man known as Ed Horan and that he had connections to Duane and MT,ID,WA and OR.

ATTENTION JUMPERS: Do you know this name
FRANK ROACH.

Roach, Horan and Weber - are connected.
Mr. FBI are you listening?

I came beck to edit this post because I felt that I had said too much - way too much... things that could hurt others - best to let the FBI disclose things - I served Cooper up on a platinum platter and they chose to ignore it ---or is it on purposes?

I chose to expose this information in the forum - for my own purpose of self preservation --- the FBI was provided with this information in 1997 and 1998 and in my opinion the agent of record at that time never opened the manual.

CKRET. Could you please tell us what DNA evidence was used to rule out Weber? Yes we know it was DNA from the tie but what evidence was used for Weber's DNA?

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CKRET. Could you please tell us what DNA evidence was used to rule out Weber? Yes we know it was DNA from the tie but what evidence was used for Weber's DNA?

Unfortunately, I think Ckret and a bunch of the other main "sleuths" have retired from using this forum due to the events of the past week. I received a PM from someone about joining a yahoogroup listserv for future DB discussions, but I personally would much rather have a site that I can log in to such as this instead of getting constant emails. I wish they would come back and post here, but I sense that they felt they were not wanted.

agreed
I think we're seeing the end of DB Cooper here...

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agreed
I think we're seeing the end of DB Cooper here...

When I was at Alcatraz a while back, I was given a rundown on why the powers that be concluded that Morris et al. did not survive their escape attempt, though the movie "Escape from Alcatraz" had it that they did.

Morris was an institutionalized criminal, with no connection to any kind of infrastructure on the outside. Had he made it to the mainland and made good his escape, he would have had to obtain food and clothing by any means possible, having zero funds with which to work. There were no reports of missing laundry, pilfered foodstuffs or other indications of the criminals presence to indicate that they had done anything but succumb to the frigid waters they were ill prepared to traverse.

In the Dan Cooper case, you have someone exiting an aircraft at night at a location that was completely unplanned. Though the location has not been positively established, the only options that seem at all likely are rugged as all get out.

Assuming he survived all the way to the ground (a big if), he is now in conditions for which he is entirely unprepared - cold, wet and lost in the boonies. Even if he had a compass, flashlight, boots, a waterproof parka, food and water, he still would be in pretty tough shape.

There were no cell phones in that day and age, so calling for backup (assuming he had any) was pretty much out of the question.

Someone coming out of the woods wearing the clothes he reportedly had on when he was last seen, even if he managed to keep his shoes (loafers out of a jet? right), would have drawn quite a bit of attention - but there were no reports of such an oddity.

I have spent enough time tromping around in, flying through and parachuting into mountainous terrain that my conclusion is that the perpetrator of this crime grossly underestimated what he was up against. McCoy had a much more clearly worked out game plan, but he was still caught in short order.

If someone was to jump a round into that terrain at night, there is a well better than average chance that they would be badly injured or killed in the process. An injury that would be quite survivable at a DZ could well be fatal under those circumstances (tib/fib, femur, gored during a tree landing, cut away from a tree landing, etc.).

The point of all this is that, given the particulars of the case there is a high likelihood that Dan Cooper never made it out of those woods.

There will always be people enamored of the story that Morris and his pals made it, or that Dan Cooper outwitted everyone and lived high on the hog on his ill-gotten gains - but the odds are against it.

If someone has something compelling that supports the suggestion that Cooper pulled it off, I'd be interested to hear about it. So far, however, every time I do the math it says he didn't.


Blue skies,

Winsor

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agreed
I think we're seeing the end of DB Cooper here...

Well, then let's get started on the Steve Fossett case!
Probably a hell of a lot easier to solve since the trail isn't nearly as cold.

I had wondered about the Alcatraz escape... Wouldn't most drowned bodies float on the surface until they washed up ashore somewhere? No bodies were ever found. I would be hard pressed to believe they survived anyway. They had to go more than a mile to reach the mainland against mean currents and frigid waters and I just don't see that happening unless they had today's wetsuits.

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agreed
I think we're seeing the end of DB Cooper here...

Well, then let's get started on the Steve Fossett case!
Probably a hell of a lot easier to solve since the trail isn't nearly as cold.

I'd agree. I'm surprised they still haven't found the wreckage yet.

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agreed
I think we're seeing the end of DB Cooper here...

Well, then let's get started on the Steve Fossett case!
Probably a hell of a lot easier to solve since the trail isn't nearly as cold.

I'd agree. I'm surprised they still haven't found the wreckage yet.

Especially when they did find six previously-undiscovered crash sites.

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I had wondered about the Alcatraz escape... Wouldn't most drowned bodies float on the surface until they washed up ashore somewhere? No bodies were ever found. I would be hard pressed to believe they survived anyway. They had to go more than a mile to reach the mainland against mean currents and frigid waters and I just don't see that happening unless they had today's wetsuits.

The Alcatraz to shore swim has been done without wetsuits, but those who have done it are athletes. The water temp is generally between 54 and 60 degrees F. which doesnt sound real cold but believe me, I have gone swimming in SF bay (briefly) without a wetsuit and it feels like you are freezing. There is a slack water period between tides that would be optimal for such a swim. Even if the tidal current is running, you arent swimming directly against it when you head towards SF. It mostly moves you along the waterfront towards or away from the Golden Gate. The Coasties (USCG) tell me that bodies do not always float. If they stay on the bottom for a while, crabs will puncture any cavities that could hold gas from tissue decomposition and refloat the body, then it stays on the bottom and is recycled into your next crab cocktail. Quite a few bridge jumpers are never found. Did the missing prisoners make it to shore? To paraphrase a movie title: No Swim for Old Men