Downsize Decision

Hello all!

Once again, thanks for looking at this post and (hopefully) chiming in.

I am on a Sabre 2 135 that I picked up used, and TBH it seems to be ending it's era of "jumpability". The fabric is fading considerably and there are some spots where it has become a little bit tattered. Question is this:

My exit weight is ~150 (I'm a shorter, skinny guy), and I feel comfortable on the 135 with riser, harness, toggle input. I'm not getting tossed-around by the canopy by any means, and I do think I would be comfortable on a 120 as well. I stand up every landing, and have had to land a downwinder and several crosswind. Playing with front riser turns, stalling, riding the rears, etc. above 2500ft and I feel as though I am familiar with the recovery and input response off of the Sabre 2 135. I am at about 150 jumps, and am entertaining the idea of buying my first new canopy. Was looking at a Sabre 3 120. Any thoughts on my comfort level, size and experience contributing to this?

1 hour ago, h3x said:

Hello all!

Once again, thanks for looking at this post and (hopefully) chiming in.

I am on a Sabre 2 135 that I picked up used, and TBH it seems to be ending it's era of "jumpability". The fabric is fading considerably and there are some spots where it has become a little bit tattered. Question is this:

My exit weight is ~150 (I'm a shorter, skinny guy), and I feel comfortable on the 135 with riser, harness, toggle input. I'm not getting tossed-around by the canopy by any means, and I do think I would be comfortable on a 120 as well. I stand up every landing, and have had to land a downwinder and several crosswind. Playing with front riser turns, stalling, riding the rears, etc. above 2500ft and I feel as though I am familiar with the recovery and input response off of the Sabre 2 135. I am at about 150 jumps, and am entertaining the idea of buying my first new canopy. Was looking at a Sabre 3 120. Any thoughts on my comfort level, size and experience contributing to this?

You are already pretty heavily loaded for the number of jumps you have. There is still a lot you can and should learn and experience you should gain before downsizing. Other people will tell you other things, but that is my strongly held opinion for the set of facts that you have stated. I also think that you should get the opinion of an experienced rigger about the condition of your current canopy. It may very well have a lot more life left than you think. 

Without seeing anything its hard to say. But if you're on a 135 and its doing well and its just the canopy is ending life, then why not get another 135? Why do you want to downsize? Standing up every landing is great, so why change?

53 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

You are already pretty heavily loaded for the number of jumps you have. There is still a lot you can and should learn and experience you should gain before downsizing. Other people will tell you other things, but that is my strongly held opinion for the set of facts that you have stated. I also think that you should get the opinion of an experienced rigger about the condition of your current canopy. It may very well have a lot more life left than you think. 

Good points.

May I recommend working your way through BillVon's list of canopy tasks on your old canopy before you down-size.

Also consider that down-sizing is often more of a fashion choice than a "must have." If you are considering later doing BASE jumps or wingsuits or precision landing competitions or exhibition jumps into stadiums, down-sizing might be a disadvantage.

It isn't just about the size of the fabric and your wingloading but also things like the length of the lines that more and more into play as the canopy gets smaller.

For reference anywhere in the world which has canopy size rules (rather than recommendations) you would be on a minimum of a 170.

Before considering downsizing, you should be working with a canopy coach, have a competent mentor, have worked your way through The Downsizing Checklist, and have discussed your progression plan with an S&TA.

There is no way I’d ever recommend anyone with only 150 jumps to fly a WL of 1.45.

Please make a decision after speaking with and flying with a qualified local resource.

Don't listen to people on the internet, except me of course.........

50 minutes ago, BMAC615 said:

Before considering downsizing, you should be working with a canopy coach, have a competent mentor, have worked your way through The Downsizing Checklist, and have discussed your progression plan with an S&TA.

There is no way I’d ever recommend anyone with only 150 jumps to fly a WL of 1.45.

It would be a 1.25 WL. But I think the consensus here is to work with a canopy coach, and give it more time before downsizing.  I'll also work through the BillVon list. Thanks everybody!

10 hours ago, h3x said:

My exit weight is ~150 (I'm a shorter, skinny guy), and I feel comfortable on the 135...and I do think I would be comfortable on a 120 as well.

USPA conducts exhaustive analysis on each fatal incident that occurs in the U.S., and when it comes to canopy-related fatalities there is a well-documented pattern.

There are three traits that are consistently connected to these incidents:

1. The skydiver is male
2. The skydiver has less than 1,000 jumps
3. The skydiver was downsizing rapidly.

My recommendation for young jumpers - including you - is to forego the downsizing and spend your money on professional canopy coaching. When I say professional, I don't mean whoever is the best you have locally (unless they are truly qualified). I mean real-world canopy coaches - like the folks who run companies focusing on the discipline. These coaches are in the best position to assess your skills and offer sound advice.

5 hours ago, chuckakers said:

USPA conducts exhaustive analysis on each fatal incident that occurs in the U.S., and when it comes to canopy-related fatalities there is a well-documented pattern.

There are three traits that are consistently connected to these incidents:

1. The skydiver is male
2. The skydiver has less than 1,000 jumps
3. The skydiver was downsizing rapidly.

My recommendation for young jumpers - including you - is to forego the downsizing and spend your money on professional canopy coaching. When I say professional, I don't mean whoever is the best you have locally (unless they are truly qualified). I mean real-world canopy coaches - like the folks who run companies focusing on the discipline. These coaches are in the best position to assess your skills and offer sound advice.

All good advice except he said his current 135 is worn out. He should absolutely spend money on canopy coaching (and not downsize at his current experience level) but let’s not encourage him to forgo replacing an end of life canopy in favour of better canopy coaching and getting into gear trouble. A couple of people here in Australia have been injured relatively recently from worn out canopies ripping in half on final. Canopy coaching is super important but, in my view, significantly less important than jumping airworthy gear.

OP, stick with the 135 for now. Buy a newer one (first priority) and take Chuck’s advice on the best canopy coaching you can get.

3 hours ago, faulknerwn said:

Really?  Holy cow!  I have been jumping for 30 years and have never heard of that happening.  Definitely on opening or a worn line braking occasionally later but never a canopy ripping in half not during opening shock..

 

Likely similar to reports of lines breaking during a high g swoop load. 

5 hours ago, faulknerwn said:

Really?  Holy cow!  I have been jumping for 30 years and have never heard of that happening.  Definitely on opening or a worn line braking occasionally later but never a canopy ripping in half not during opening shock..

 

Yep, happened twice 

2 hours ago, base615 said:

Yep, happened twice 

Modern ZP canopies that have had good care taken of them, especially not left in the Sun and not packed outdoors by sweaty packers laying on them generally last for 2000 jumps or so maximum. I have seen several go a few hundred more than that but none that make it to 3000. And yes, if you do not retire them beforehand older canopies will eventually land with the (usually) centre cell split right down most of the chord. Of course the split normally is on the top skin and most often the jumper does not even realize it until after landing. 

6 hours ago, gowlerk said:

Of course the split normally is on the top skin and most often the jumper does not even realize it until after landing. 

This happened to me on a subterminal Hop N Pop with a month old Safire 189. The factory made it right, but it was dicey. Didn't figure out what was wrong with the canopy till around 400' Could feel it and kept seeing a good canopy. Finally got a glimpse of the top skin in the center cell and was more than gentle with it the rest of the way down. 

12 hours ago, gowlerk said:

...And yes, if you do not retire them beforehand older canopies will eventually land with the (usually) centre cell split right down most of the chord. Of course the split normally is on the top skin and most often the jumper does not even realize it until after landing. 

I was taught that the top of the center cell gets the most wear because of packing.

Once the canopy is cocooned, the packer is laying on top of just the center cell. So all the friction and all the sweat & stuff get on the top of the center cell.

+1 vote for canopy coaching.

At your experience level you really should be on a 150. If you want to consider a faster progression make sure you are getting tons of coaching and mentorship so you know what you are doing.

Everyone here has a friend or several that got hurt by downsizing too quickly that looked great until they didn't.

If you are worried about the state of your canopy, get another used 135.

I once had a canopy split down ~ 35% of the chord of the center cell.

Primary cause = a tad bit too enthusiastic of a delay at Bridge Day one year (prior to mesh slider days).

Fortunately it was a boaty "F-111" 7 cell (Bill Gargano Spirit) and I could land in water.

Fun times.

I sewed it back together and used it for water jumps a few more times before selling it to a newbie.................

Got ya.

It went into the bin.

had a friend give me a canopy a couple of years ago, about a 250 or so with no tag or markings of any kind we could see.  it is worn out so bad you can see through the black panels pretty easily, but it has a jump or two left in it i think.  as soon as i get my rigger to make sure i'm right i want to jump it. 

You'll need to get clearance from your local instructors/dz but imo you have no business being on a 120 at 150 jumps. Wingloading isnt everything.