Sad news for tandem

Your part fo the old guard good ole boy network that has hurt the growth of this sport. Your editorial that hurt USPA by hurting Jans chances at re-election and current postings are more proof to that.

Maybe you should sceam STFU at the top of your lungs while looking in the mirror.

The industry needs to learn from this, and do it right. 20 plus year no issues with tandems, then one honest mistake and a mistake made from complacency have cost us dearly (well mostly SE and Ted, you know your friend).

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court-certified expert witness

Me too. That and $3 gets me a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but it's worth diddley squat here.

Mike Gruwell USPA search attached, he is a tandem instructor, AFF instructor, and even an S&TA, Pro rating, etc, all current ratings.

S&TA's are appointed by the Regional Director, and I frankly have issues with that.

HOWEVER, yes, Mike Gruwell did actually make a 'mistake' as opposed to "culturally enhanced gross negligence", and yes, we admitted and said so, and he stood up and took his lumps, IMO.

But someone still died on his watch, due to what he did (or failed to do) and he still got his ratings back when perhaps he should not have.

Again, the situation is not one of a 'bad landing' or an AAD fire, it is death.

And Robin;
frankly, I don't give a fuck what lawyer reads my shit here, I am not saying anything that I do not have the right to say or that should not be said.

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Mike Gruwell USPA search attached, he is a tandem instructor, AFF instructor, and even an S&TA, Pro rating, etc, all current ratings.

S&TA's are appointed by the Regional Director, and I frankly have issues with that.

HOWEVER, yes, Mike Gruwell did actually make a 'mistake' as opposed to "culturally enhanced gross negligence", and yes, we admitted and said so, and he stood up and took his lumps, IMO.

But someone still died on his watch, due to what he did (or failed to do) and he still got his ratings back when perhaps he should not have.

.........................................................................

So it sounds like MG is still a TI in the eyes of USPA.

However, I would like to hear if he is still a TI in the eyes of SE.

Last thing I heard, you needed USPA approval, manufacturer's approval, currency and a recent medical to work as a TI in the USA.

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I am going to start showing up at meetings and publicly fucking speaking my mind if we do not change the culture somewhat.

I encourage that. It's what I did 2 years ago and continue to do.

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The more you know earlier about your opponent, the better a plan you can make to beat him.

Considering what is known about you Robin, you might want to STFU.

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The industry needs to learn from this, and do it right. 20 plus year no issues with tandems, then one honest mistake and a mistake made from complacency have cost us dearly (well mostly SE and Ted, you know your friend).

Part of being "old" is having a memory - and the wisdom to (sometimes) not break wind with my mouth when I'm clueless, to wit:

Contrary to your assertion, there have been multiple huge issues with tandem fatalities over the years, perhaps the most damaging of which was the SkyDance double fatality about 10 years ago involving a student named Stephanie and a TI named Seth Blake, whose body tested positive for trace amounts of delta-9 THC metabolytes and also a measurable amount of alcohol.

This not only resulted in the widespread imposition of police state surveillance techniques on TIs and other DZ workers at multiple locations, it too threatened the viability of tandem jumping.

Worse, back when there was rec.skydiving instead of the Dork Zone, the threads related thereto degenerated into gut-spilling name-calling and such horrific idiot dialectic that I wrote a similar missive then.

It is in fact the mindless ignorance of peeps such as yourself and those others who shoot off their mouths without first thinking of the total consequences that give more force and ammunition to those who wish us ill.

oh, and just for your information, it was the editorial i wrote in response to the plaintiff's contention that seth blake was a multiple abuser of various drugs that cut this plaintiff off at the knees and helped to settle the case outside of court because, unlike you, i did my homework and research before i wrote a word.

Bottom line on that editorial: the additional drug tests sought and obtained by the plaintiff - his _own_ evidence, in other words, proved that Seth was in fact _not_ the drug addict claimed by the plaintiff because said tests revealed no drugs in his system beyond the trace delta 9 THC metabolytes that, in fact, proved that Seth had not used cannabis for at least several days before the accident, and also proved he used no other drugs of any kind (and as i recall, the presence of alcohol was determined to be a byproduct of decomposition rather than ingestion because the bodies cooked in a hot sun on asphalt for several hours while the police did their investigation).

Which brings us back to my initial post on this thread: Stephanie's father destroyed the central premise of his own case because he just wouldn't STFU and I don't want to see us do the same thing to Ted and/or sport parachuting.

And for your further information, I've known Ted for more than 30 years and in fact Ted and I did the world's first tandem base jump in 1984, so i do have a personal as well as professional interest in seeing him not further damaged by idiot dialecticists.

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court-certified expert witness

Me too. That and $3 gets me a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but it's worth diddley squat here.

Idiot dialectic category: Non sequitur.

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The more you know earlier about your opponent, the better a plan you can make to beat him.

Considering what is known about you Robin, you might want to STFU.

Idiot dialectic category: Non sequitur.

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court-certified expert witness

Me too. That and $3 gets me a cup of coffee at Starbucks, but it's worth diddley squat here.

Idiot dialectic category: Non sequitur.

Then why bring up an irrelevant bit of biography?

Don't complain when people respond to irrelevances that YOU write here.

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The more you know earlier about your opponent, the better a plan you can make to beat him.

Considering what is known about you Robin, you might want to STFU.

Idiot dialectic category: Non sequitur.

OK, so you got a dictionary for Christmas

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The more you know earlier about your opponent, the better a plan you can make to beat him.

Considering what is known about you Robin, you might want to STFU.

Idiot dialectic category: Non sequitur.

OK, so you got a dictionary for Christmas

Sure wish I did!

I had to google it...





~Damn public schools!

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However, I've heard of some operations so fast paced that I would have a hard time doing a good inspection, I fear. Has that ever been a problem for you?

Sounds like an easy decision to me!

Money or your / someones life????

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So please get a clue about how the real legal world works before you break wind through your mouth again.

And this approach accomplishes so much more. Maybe you should take your own advise till you can speak with respect.

Idiot dialectic category: Non sequitur.

Do you post here under another user name? There is another guy that post mindless drivel just like this. He is usually babbling about demos though.

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However, I've heard of some operations so fast paced that I would have a hard time doing a good inspection, I fear. Has that ever been a problem for you?

Sounds like an easy decision to me!

Money or your / someones life????

As an instructor at several DZ's over the years, I've been in the "hurry up" mode more than once. Occasionally you have to tell the DZO to slow down, hold the plane, or scratch you and your student from the load. The pressure to "hurry up" and make the next load can lead someone to taking shortcuts. Those shortcuts can lead to accidents. In a perfect world, every instructor would always stand up to any DZO that tried to push too fast a pace. We're not in a perfect world.

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Not sure why more people are not speaking 'their mind', but sort of understand with all the USPA politics.

But we (USPA and skydiving) are simply hanging ourselves in the environment of 'not speaking up' as well. Mike Gruwell does the same shit, loses his ratings, whines, and gets his ratings back again. WTF?

A lot of that seemed to be hush hush or was at the time. I am going to start showing up at meetings and publicly fucking speaking my mind if we do not change the culture somewhat. we cut secret deals with lawsuits, we suspend ratings for minor infractions, yet let people get away with criminally negligent homicide (or at least manslaughter)...

...

Very well said, as much as 'you' and 'I' disagree on a few subjects (won't get into it in here), you hit the nail on the head bro.

Too many will stand back and take it in the ass because they are 'too scared' to speak up.

I admire your honesty and 'desire' to do something about it!

Good on you!

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Idiot dialectic category: Non sequitur.

OK, so you got a dictionary for Christmas

Dictionary? Sounds more like one of those "word of the day" calendars. Or an attempt at the guiness book of world records for most uses of the word dialectic in one internet forum thread.

Seriously though, Robin sounds REALLY smart. I am impressed with all the big words and egotistical attitude. Robin clearly wins whatever the argument is.

Or was this dialectic? Or dialectric?

Dave

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Idiot dialectic category: Non sequitur.

OK, so you got a dictionary for Christmas

Dictionary? Sounds more like one of those "word of the day" calendars. Or an attempt at the guiness book of world records for most uses of the word dialectic in one internet forum thread.

Seriously though, Robin sounds REALLY smart. I am impressed with all the big words and egotistical attitude. Robin clearly wins whatever the argument is.

Or was this dialectic? Or dialectric?

Dave

Record use of dialectic and non sequitur in one thread along with references to a particular translation of "The Art of War" made me think of a different word: Pedantic (why no references yet to Niccolo Machiavelli?...that would sound smart too)

That is correct, the world is not perfect.

Pushy customers who want everything cheap.
"Efficient operators".
Pushy operators who want to cover costs and make money.
Pushy colleagues who want to finish jumping earlier.
Pushy lawyers who want money in lieu of justice but under the guise of it.


And it's a real bummer when you get booted off a drop zone for taking the time required to set up your student correctly.

But in the end, it is still a choice.

I just got back into tandems after 5 years off.
High volume city jumping operation next to the coast.
Handcams.
Cloud jumping permits.
Blah Blah.

Lots of cheese if you get my drift (Reason Model).

It was really busy. But the operation allowed me at least a few jumps / days to get back into the saddle a bit more comfortably by reducing the complexity of my jumps (better weather, no handcams, fewer jumps, etc).
My first really busy day was 11 tandems. most of which were handcam. Not bad considering each load includes a 20 minute bus trip. I botched one handcam that day. Why? Because I made the decision that safety was more important. I was also slower getting my students / customers ready - only by a couple of minutes. But I felt like I was dragging the chain a bit. But I still checked them. The other TM were pretty good in helping out here and there.

Obviously you can't keep stuffing things or holding things up and expect to maintain employment.

In the end, you need a good routine that includes fundamental checks for EVERY jump. This should NOT be compromised.

I used CHIIFFTAA when flying ultralights. Controls, harness, instruments, ignition, fuel, flaps, trim, ailerons, area, or whatever.

For tandems: ?????

AAD
Drogue
Harness
Opening
Closure

Passenger
Harness
Undergarments
Comfort



Perhaps you should make your own up, Or use one of the existing ones,

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"Rare is the DZ that doesn't rely on tandems to keep the lights on and the prop turning. If tandems go away, most the turbine DZs can just wave as their fast aircraft go away too."

This notion that tandems are the only solution is a bit off. This sport survived for decades without them.
The proverbial genie is out of the bottle now so there is no going back.

But, loud slow airplanes sure did cut down on the number of dorks in the air at one time.

ADHOC PHUC!!! dude thats funny. Sounds like your at The Gong? I know a few of the boys there and they are all professional!

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It's my understanding that the y-strap stuff could not be entered as evidence because it's development occurred after the incident.

The Y-strap is a subsequential remedial measure. Evidence of subsequent remedial measures is inadmissible in federal court (and lots of state courts, too) to prove liability. The courts want to encourage people to make improvements to items without fear of having evidence of such improvements used against them.

Summary judgment is not trial. The court was basically saying there are issues of fact which a jury needs to consider to resolve the lawsuit. Depending on the extent of Strong's assets and liabilities the bankruptcy may effectively end the negligence litigation.

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And I do not remember any case where a lawyer subpoenaed someone over a post in DZ.com.

Well...


I didn't receive subpoena a but was 'threatened' with one so to speak.
A couple years ago there was a comment I made in the incidents forum that sparked interest from some mouth piece for a plaintiff. It was a liability suit regarding a demonstration jump with injury.

The comment wasn't derogatory in nature, but in retrospect could have been interpreted in various ways. This guy wanted to interpret in a way beneficial to his client.

The eye opener is... I'm not an easy guy to find. (by design)

I finally surfaced after repeated harassing calls & visits to my 80 year old mother (1500 miles away) by a P.I.
That idiot had been goose chasing for a couple months trying to locate & interview me.

After an interesting 25 minute conversation with this attorney the issue concerning my opinion and possible involvement as a 'professional witness' was put to rest, but it definitely gave me pause to reconsider what & how I say things in a public forum.

~That being said.

I understand the point you're making TK, and I agree the machine isn't running right in many ways.

...I don't know what the answer is on how to fix things, but I have concerns when we lean too quickly toward publicly throwin' a 'family member' under the bus.

You & I have been around for a while, we've seen Skydiving leave the realm of 'Hobby & Sport' and move into becoming not much more than profitable busine$$ in many instances.

As such, we all need to become acutely aware that our words and actions can & will be scrutinized during those circumstances in which fault and money may play a role in some way because of an unfortunate outcome of a citizen's participation.

'Hush things up' isn't what I'm saying, thoughtful consideration within the open discussions, while understanding the current 'business aspect' now being the nature of the beast ~ IS.

And BTW TK~ I'm not referring negatively to your post(s) by any means, just replying to the subpoena comment...

In most jurisdictions, just because you post your opinion on DZ.com doesn't mean someone can subpoena you to testify as an expert witness in a skydiving case. Expert witnesses can only testify if they choose to do so voluntarily (and most only choose to do so only if paid a FAT fee;). Fact witnesses on the other hand can be compelled to testify (and get a couple of pennies for mileage:). If you have direct knowledge of facts (not opinions) relevant to the case, you can be forced to testify. If you don't you can't.

Not saying a negative post here can give a plaintiff some insight on standards of care in the industry, but I am saying that the plaintiff still needs to find an expert who will voluntarily testify.

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So please get a clue about how the real legal world works before you break wind through your mouth again.

And this approach accomplishes so much more. Maybe you should take your own advise till you can speak with respect.

Idiot dialectic category: Non sequitur.

Do you post here under another user name? There is another guy that post mindless drivel just like this. He is usually babbling about demos though.

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Posted by Eagle Dancer November 11 1998, 2:00am on Dejanews

Dear newsgroup readers:

My participation in this newsgroup has reminded why I enjoy politics and
why I retired therefrom.

I enjoy politics because it is the forum where impassioned intelligent
people try to make this world we all live in a little better in some way
shape or form.

I found those people in the larger political world and I found some of them
on this ng: Winsor, Kevin, Lawyer Joe, Mark Gogo, Bill von and some others
whose names and/or handles I can't at the moment recall. Having "met" these
people on rec.skydiving has been a pleasure at several levels and I'm glad
my participation here brought me in contact with them.

I retired from politics in the larger world because, unfortunately, it is
also the forum where sheep and imbeciles and vicious losers try to make
this world we all live in as hellish a place as that space between their
ears that passes for a brain.

I found those people in the larger political world and I found a lot of
them on this ng. Unlike the bright lights, however, these dim bulbs shall
remain unnamed. Having encountered these people on rec.skydiving has been
painful on several levels and I regret that my participation here brought
me in contact with them: Life is nasty, brutish and short enough without
seeking such company.

But for some reason or lack thereof, I thought this ng was different. For
some reason or lack thereof, I thought that the sport we all supposedly
love imparted a level of mental and philosophical discipline to its
participants that would allow them to rise above the usual level of
political discourse in this country.

Unfortunately, skydiving does not impart any general group wisdom or even
situational group wisdom. This conclusion is painfully obvious to me now,
and I wonder now how I could have ever thought otherwise.

Regardless, I have decided to retire from the forum again, and with this
posting I will unsubscribe to this ng and direct my energies into more
constructive directions. Before I go though I do want to make a couple of
parting comments on some conduct I have seen on this ng and some of its
potential consequences.

1. Ray and Melanie. As I read the various posts on Ray Ferrell and Melanie
Conatser, I was struck by the utter, UTTER stupidity with which their
attackers have conducted themselves. The reason is simple: Both these
individuals are senior and pivotal members of the parachuting community and
the things being said about them on this ng group demean them and undermine
their positions as leaders in our sport. By extension, this demeans the
sport itself and exposes us to systemic danger.

Think about it, those of you who actually can: Every nasty word said about
Ray Ferrell on this newsgroup goes straight into the evidence file of the
lawyers suing Mr. Ferrell and his DZ over the Stephanie Cotter/Seth Blake
fatalities.

Every... single... word. And those who don't think the outcome of that
trial will have powerful ramifications throughout the skydiving industry
are
worse than a loser ovine imbeciles; they are utterly clueless.

Consider Mr. Ferrell's position as a USPA board member, a designated FAA
rigger examiner, a major drop zone owner and skydiving business owner. Now
consider how his stature -- and by association, that of the sport and all
of its participants -- could be diminished and besmirched in court when the
piles and piles of ng garbage about him are dumped into the court record.

Consider how it makes our organization look, how it makes our sport look,
how it makes us all look. Every time the knives came out for Mr. Ferrell,
the Cotter lawyers sucked it up and they _will_ use it.

Ditto for Melanie Conatser. Though she faces no lawsuits at the moment, the
first time she does, the lawyers will pore through Dejanews to see
what they can find. Legal Research 101, ladies and gentlemen. Every nasty
horrible thing is now in the record forever (or at least until the y2k bug
hits), just waiting like a little (or big) time bomb.

Until the last day or two, I said to my friends that even the sheep, the
imbeciles and the vicious losers who spew this garbage on the ng would not
dream of saying such things out loud with a whuffo lawyer lurking within
listening range.

Now I'm not so sure; the magnitude of their idiocy is so far beyond the
boundaries of not only common decency but basic self-interest that it might
not even occur to them that it's a problem.

2. Lack of perspective, lack of respect. One of the things that has been
most disheartening about rec.skydiving is the incredible lack of
perspective and respect exhibited by its dim bulbs. Never, not even in the
larger political world, have I seen so little civility, common courtesy or
understanding that disagreement doesn't call for disrespect.

Certainly, I have been dialectically tough on those with whom I differ, but
I have tried to always be polite and formal even when I was being tough.
I'm sure I was less polite and formal than I could have been at times, but
what most strikes me about it is that the respect and courtesy I tried to
show to even my most ill-mannered and dim-witted adversaries was generally
greeted with derision and ridicule.

It is principally for the above two reasons that I retire from this ng.
There is not enough news on it to make reading it worthwhile and with rare
exceptions, the company is not to my liking.

Perhaps something I say here will sink in, and some of the conduct which I
point out will moderate. But then, I always have been a starry-eyed
idealist.

To the bright lights I've met on this ng: It's been a pleasure.

To the dim bulbs, it's been something else.

And to Mistress Kirk, you're a very interesting creature.

To all of you, say what you will. I won't see a word of it.

Respectfully,

Robin Heid

The above is pretty mild compared to some of the other stuff. I guess the sky is always falling or has for 10+ years.

As far as respect for others, I think the poster has been a bit dilatory.