This guy insisted he was ok to jump a Velo

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The point is not that he checks his alititude, there's niothing wrong with that, it's when he checks it that illustrates the lack of thought he's put into his jump. Right of out of the door? What's the point in checking it there? It's not going to be much different than it was 2 seconds prior. Ditto on the bottom end, it just doesn't make sense the way he looks, turns it away, looks again, turn it away, etc. What are the chances there is any meanignful change between those glances?

Maybe his wearing a camera contributed to that. Maybe not.

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Bit of a tangent, but I'm always curious as to people's reactions to conversations like this. When you said, "You're gonna die." Did he just brush you off thereafter? Laugh and think you were kidding? Like I said, just curious.

His response was something like "Oh, I'm ok with it." Said he had made 30 jumps on it already. Said he "knew the risks". It was explained to him that the fact that he was 2:1 on a Velo at less than 300 jumps clearly meant that he either didn't understand the risks or simply didn't care.

His overall attitude was that of the bulletproof type. He wasn't a smart ass or rude, just bulletproof. Acted like he had heard it all before (which he probably had) and that everyone around him just didn't understand his mad skillz.

Unskilled, low skilled, low time folks overestimating their competence is not unique to skydiving. I have something around 4000 skydives and I lean toward conservative. Things scare me now that wouldn't have at 800 jumps. It occurred to me that I'm in the opposite end of the spectrum as a 100 hour pilot. I don't know enough to know what I don't know,... yet!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

This ties in with my current signature line.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Chuck Darwin

Useful thread - and we haven't even gotten on him for wearing a camera too. Low jumps, camera, velo, lied about the velo, etc etc etc

every cliche in the book

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Useful thread - and we haven't even gotten on him for wearing a camera too. Low jumps, camera, velo, lied about the velo, etc etc etc

every cliche in the book

In all fairness, he didn't lie about jumping a Velo. He just got on the load with it. Of course it's kind of hard to lie about what you're jumping when you're seen downwinding it with a 20 mph tailwind.

He was also asked who sold it to him and he said he "forgot".

I have read many of the posts here, Jumpy McAwesome just doesn't seem to get it (seems every DZ gets one of these once every two or three years) and like someone said, if the aren't listening they would probably not understand a punch in the nose either. I would offer to purchase a large life insurance policy on said individual under the condition I would be the soul beneficiary, they just might understand that!

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Checking your alti 2 seconds out the door is a good thing. It helps you learn about just how much altitude you lose in those two seconds....it's a good thing to know when you do hop 'n pops and especially so when you will face an emergency bailout at a low altitude.

Pops, I know where you're coming from, and I respect that, but you and I keep track of our altitude with that little clock in our head and use the alti for a backup. Anyone who's expert enough to jump 1.9 loaded Velo should be expert enough to count to "10".

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That info is going to help you determine a reasonable threshold for bailing out on your main or bailing out on your reserve in an emergency.

Just like EP's, you should have those altitudes engrained in your brain before you get on the plane. Talk to an instructor if you don't know when to bail out and when to stay with the plane.

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Knowing your altitude at all times is not only COOL, it's life saving.

And being too altimeter dependent is UNCOOL and dangerous.
I've watched more than one jumper take it down too low with a broken alti. I hear of people "missing the beeps" on their audibles. Hey, the ground is there on every jump. Don't be surprised when it comes up at you.

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Maybe his wearing a camera contributed to that

Maybe, or maybe the mentality of wearing a camera on a solo hop n pop is indicitive of his 'look at me' attitude. I know that without the camera we wouldn't have had the lovely reference point it provides, but I can hardly think of less pointless thing than filming a solo hop n pop.


Another point regrading what the video reveals, the delay and frequent altimeter checks lead me to believe he was taking as low as he thought he could get away with. Is there anything wrong with that in itself? Maybe not, if you're within the limits of the BSRs, then I guess it 'legit', however, a jumper who claims to have the experience and judgement to jump a highly loaded Velo would realize that there's no benefit to humming it all the way down, and the video proves it.

You can't count on things to go your way, the mal in the video proves it, and if there had been any complications with the EPs, extra altitude would have been a great asset, but this guy traded it for solo freefall time, falling stable with no manuvers.

Of course, the other issue when you bring a Velo into the mix is the Velo. Capable of eating more altitude in a malfunciton scenario, very ground hungry when then open right, and needing more space to land safely than other canopies. What that adds up to is altitude being even more a factor. Not making it back to the DZ, or not being able to set up properly for a landing become a bigger deal than on more mild canopies, and you need to have the right attitude about this, and opening altitudes, and planning ahead to be able to jump one safely. I just don't see that from this video.

To be fair to the jumper in question, the reason I read into the video what I do is because I remember being there myself. Humming it down for no reason, and feeling like I was bulletproof. The difference was, I wasn't also jumping a Velo at 2.0, I was jumping a Sabre 135 at more like 1.3. Big difference between those wings.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled individuals suffer from illusory superiority, mistakenly rating their ability much higher than average. This bias is attributed to a metacognitive inability of the unskilled to recognize their mistakes.

This ties in with my current signature line.
"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" Chuck Darwin

That is awesome. I'm afraid it explains so much about a few of my coworkers.

I spent years in my career questioning my performance daily, seeking ways to improve. I still make changes in my technique and work habits when I find deficiencies. I've seen that same trait in some of the best controllers I know.
My favorite Bertrand Russell quote: The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts.

At least he is not trying to blame someone else cutting him, or a wind change. Let's give him credit for that

For the record, I understood your point and I agree with it - I was just concerned some newer jumpers might misinterpret what you were saying.

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DZO’s, if a guy named Chad Jennings shows up on your DZ he will probably have a padded logbook by then to match his Velo.

I jumped with him a couple months ago. Seemed like a really nice guy. Damn, I'm really disappointed to hear this

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Bit of a tangent, but I'm always curious as to people's reactions to conversations like this. When you said, "You're gonna die." Did he just brush you off thereafter? Laugh and think you were kidding? Like I said, just curious.

His response was something like "Oh, I'm ok with it." Said he had made 30 jumps on it already. Said he "knew the risks". It was explained to him that the fact that he was 2:1 on a Velo at less than 300 jumps clearly meant that he either didn't understand the risks or simply didn't care.

His overall attitude was that of the bulletproof type. He wasn't a smart ass or rude, just bulletproof. Acted like he had heard it all before (which he probably had) and that everyone around him just didn't understand his mad skillz.

Good on ya, Chuck... you're picking up where the late great Al Frisby left off in Perris. He used to walk up to peeps being willfully stupid and tell them they were going to bounce. They all shrugged him off until the second or third guy in a row did in fact bounce not long after he ignored Al's assessment.

After that, peeps started paying more attention to Al's assessments.

Dude's response to your assessment reminds me of the old saying: "If you aren't worried, you obviously don't understand the problem."

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this the same guy??

Thanks for posting that link, it's a fun video. I always get a kick out of newbies who jump out of the plane and then check their altimeter 2 seconds out of the door. News flash pal, you're 100 ft lower than when you jumped 2 seconds ago.

Pssst.... 46 feet.

But I digress. Good "tell" you noticed there. I wonder if he really has 300 jumps to be checking his alti that much... of course, maybe he just likes looking at his reflection in the alti glass...

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this the same guy??

Thanks for posting that link, it's a fun video. I always get a kick out of newbies who jump out of the plane and then check their altimeter 2 seconds out of the door. News flash pal, you're 100 ft lower than when you jumped 2 seconds ago.

Pssst.... 46 feet.

Wouldn't it be 64 feet?

32 feet per second per second.

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this the same guy??

Thanks for posting that link, it's a fun video. I always get a kick out of newbies who jump out of the plane and then check their altimeter 2 seconds out of the door. News flash pal, you're 100 ft lower than when you jumped 2 seconds ago.

Pssst.... 46 feet.

Wouldn't it be 64 feet?

32 feet per second per second.

Yes, it would be.




In vacuum.

I don't understand all the concern. Its not like he isn't aware. Its his choice. If he wasn't aware then educating him would be the correct thing to do. As long as he doesn't hurt anyone else who cares. I think the golf clapping was quite appropriate. Skygodding on about it won't change anything.

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don't understand all the concern. Its not like he isn't aware. Its his choice. If he wasn't aware then educating him would be the correct thing to do. As long as he doesn't hurt anyone else who cares. I think the golf clapping was quite appropriate. Skygodding on about it won't change anything.

I take it you'll have no problem personally scraping the next Whizzkid up off the ground and filling in the divots.

Your attitude is exactly why the situation has got where it has today. People need to start speaking out loud and clear if we want to cut the body count.

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As long as he doesn't hurt anyone else who cares.

He definitely can hurt someone on his way to making a divot.

Making a divot will really get in the way of other people wanting to jump, what with the ambulance, helicopter, and such. The DZO has a whole lot of other reasons to care.

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I don't understand all the concern. Its not like he isn't aware. Its his choice. If he wasn't aware then educating him would be the correct thing to do. As long as he doesn't hurt anyone else who cares. I think the golf clapping was quite appropriate. Skygodding on about it won't change anything.

So you think augering in, putting another stain (figuratively and literally) on the sport, causing further restrictions on qualified h.p. pilots, shutting down a DZ for the day, and the untold other negative impacts - pun intended - wouldn't be hurting anyone else?

Attitudes like yours is one reason we're having trouble keeping unqualified idiots off h.p. canopies. It's fun around the keg until YOU can't jump the following day because DZ management is busy conducting yet another fatal swoop crash.

I get your point. Individual freedom. But that ends when you are on a DZ with other jumpers, one or more of whom this dumbass might take out while he flies a canopy he clearly isn't qualified to.

Dr. Dumbass has the right to jump a 12 square foot bed sheet if he wants to. He does not have a right to do it on an established DZ where his actions can cause harm or put the DZ in a bad legal position.

Wake up, man.

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As long as he doesn't hurt anyone else who cares.

He definitely can hurt someone on his way to making a divot.

Making a divot will really get in the way of other people wanting to jump, what with the ambulance, helicopter, and such. The DZO has a whole lot of other reasons to care.

If that's the only issue... If he ddnt know how to handle that canopy for a regular landing after putting himself in a slight tight situation, what's gonna happen when he turns into someone?

Thats a DZO issue.

Like highly experienced canopy pilots seem to be doing on a regular basis in the last year or so?

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Thats a DZO issue.

Not if it's me or one of my friends he slams into!!! This issue has a global affect. I agree, it should be handled by the DZO. But, to think it only affects the DZO is wrong.

I think it was Hillary Clinton who said... "It takes a Drop Zone to train a Woofo".

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don't understand all the concern. Its not like he isn't aware. Its his choice. If he wasn't aware then educating him would be the correct thing to do. As long as he doesn't hurt anyone else who cares. I think the golf clapping was quite appropriate. Skygodding on about it won't change anything.

I take it you'll have no problem personally scraping the next Whizzkid up off the ground and filling in the divots.

Your attitude is exactly why the situation has got where it has today. People need to start speaking out loud and clear if we want to cut the body count.

I don't think its my place to tell some idiot that he is an idiot. If he doesn't get it he doesn't get it. Do I think what he is doing is right, hell no. But its not my place to tell him. I'd say something the the DZO or S&TA Thats their job. My job is to get off the load that he's on and join the clappers.

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I don't think its my place to tell some idiot that he is an idiot.

That's where you come up short. In the case of a safety issue, it's everyone's job to speak up as you can't expect a DZO or S&TA to be everywhere and see everything.

There are very few issues that only endanger the jumper in question. Most of the time when the jumper loses control of the situation, it ends up presenting a danger to anyone nearby. Let's face it, on an Otter load, there are 20+ jumpers sharing a failry small chunk of sky and an even smaller landing area. If any one of them is unable to control themselves or their situation, it's not hard to see how that might effect others.

Even if the guy manages to pound in all by himself without taking anyone with him, what about the jumpers and spectators that have to witness that, is that going to be good for business at the DZ? Ditto for the reporters and cops that will show up along with the ambulance, show me the DZO that looks forward to dealing with them in the aftermath.

Of coruse, the halting of jump operations while they tend to the injured also sucks, but that's probably not a big deal in comparison.