difference between tunnel and real air- how to turn?

hey guys,

 I just finished 10min tunnel session at iFLY Oceanside and learned how to turn. Basically I just turned like an airplane in the tunnel. I showed my videos to my Perris instructors and then they said it's a bit different in the real air and I don't turn like that. So how to turn? I'm confused. When I asked them why they said it's hard to explain. 

I got way more time. In a Windtunnel than freefall time. An I can't tell the difference. 

1 hour ago, ksmaximums said:

I got way more time. In a Windtunnel than freefall time. An I can't tell the difference. 

Hmm ....interesting man.

What do you mean "like an airplane"? Could you explain in a bit more detail?

I'm guessing you learned to turn with your arms while "the real stuff in the real air" is with your legs, or some similar comment. Again, just speculating on the meaning intended, otherwise air in the sky is pretty much the same (just a lot wider and with a bit less points you can look at for reference).

i did a half hour in the tunnel at ifly in cincinatti, and they used real air inside.  i then took my newly found skills to an airplane and jumped out (actually just let go of the strut, but whatever) and did the exact same thing and it worked just like it did in the tunnel.  i am not an instructor however, and you should take anything i say accordingly.  i have been trying to fly flat and stable in the air for years and only learned after the tunnel.  turns out it was my leg position and since i was only in the air by myself would have taken a much longer time figuring it out on my own.  when i went to the tunnel, i told them i was a skydiver needing to learn how to be stable and they put the airspeed on 120 the whole time.  maybe that is what the instructors were talking about, as they usually (from what i have heard and read) lower the speed for "indoor flying" or whatever they call flying for fun.

There are lots of different ways to turn, and lots of different ways to teach turns. Your instructors at Perris probably intend to teach you a different way of initiating and stopping turns than what you learned in the tunnel. Just make a good-faith effort to do what they're teaching you, and don't overthink it.

#1 - Don't overthink it. That's really easy to do and you seem to do that some (not a criticism, just an observation). 

#2 - If you are stable on your belly in the tunnel, you are headed in the right direction. Keep in mind that's all you need to do a release dive (level 3?) Turns come later. 

I'm guessing your 'turn like an airplane' is dipping a shoulder and having that make you turn. It works, but there are better ways. As your instructors noted, it's kind of hard to explain. 
Turns using your arms & legs will be more controllable, more efficient and have less of an effect on your fall rate. 

Do you know what speed they were running the tunnel at? I don't have a whole lot of tunnel time, but I tend to run the tunnel a good bit slower than 'real' freefall. Partly because if I'm alone in the tunnel, I don't have to keep down with other jumpers. I tend to fall pretty slow. 

28 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

#1 - Don't overthink it. That's really easy to do and you seem to do that some (not a criticism, just an observation). 

#2 - If you are stable on your belly in the tunnel, you are headed in the right direction. Keep in mind that's all you need to do a release dive (level 3?) Turns come later. 

I'm guessing your 'turn like an airplane' is dipping a shoulder and having that make you turn. It works, but there are better ways. As your instructors noted, it's kind of hard to explain. 
Turns using your arms & legs will be more controllable, more efficient and have less of an effect on your fall rate. 

Do you know what speed they were running the tunnel at? I don't have a whole lot of tunnel time, but I tend to run the tunnel a good bit slower than 'real' freefall. Partly because if I'm alone in the tunnel, I don't have to keep down with other jumpers. I tend to fall pretty slow. 

7 hours ago, Binary93 said:

What do you mean "like an airplane"? Could you explain in a bit more detail?

I'm guessing you learned to turn with your arms while "the real stuff in the real air" is with your legs, or some similar comment. Again, just speculating on the meaning intended, otherwise air in the sky is pretty much the same (just a lot wider and with a bit less points you can look at for reference).

Hope you guys can see the video. I uploaded in non-WiFi environment.... 

that video shows I turned “like an airplane” lol. Dig one arm and let the air do the rest of the work. 

I won’t overthink and will just do what my instructor teaches me in the air. Some of my instructors say the tunnel and the air are the same but some of then are not. Some of them teach me to turn like an airplane but some of them are not hahaha. 

42 minutes ago, wolfriverjoe said:

Do you know what speed they were running the tunnel at? I don't have a whole lot of tunnel time, but I tend to run the tunnel a good bit slower than 'real' freefall. Partly because if I'm alone in the tunnel, I don't have to keep down with other jumpers. I tend to fall pretty slow. 

Yes, the tunnel speed was slower than actual freefall speed I guess. Not sure tho. 

1 hour ago, betzilla said:

There are lots of different ways to turn, and lots of different ways to teach turns. Your instructors at Perris probably intend to teach you a different way of initiating and stopping turns than what you learned in the tunnel. Just make a good-faith effort to do what they're teaching you, and don't overthink it.

Yes, thanks. I will just do what they teach in the Sky. 

7 hours ago, Binary93 said:

What do you mean "like an airplane"? Could you explain in a bit more detail?

I'm guessing you learned to turn with your arms while "the real stuff in the real air" is with your legs, or some similar comment. Again, just speculating on the meaning intended, otherwise air in the sky is pretty much the same (just a lot wider and with a bit less points you can look at for reference).

So you think tunnel and the real air are the same?

14 minutes ago, David Wang said:

 

 

I hate you for being young, thin, and flexible enough to arch like that. Just kidding, sort of! Just keep jumping, you'll do fine. Your instructors will cope.

17 minutes ago, gowlerk said:

I hate you for being young, thin, and flexible enough to arch like that. Just kidding, sort of! Just keep jumping, you'll do fine. Your instructors will cope.

My lower back hurts now lol!! thanks for your encouragement. I will keep jumping for sure! 

50 minutes ago, David Wang said:

Yes, the tunnel speed was slower than actual freefall speed I guess. Not sure tho. 

You take the same posture you'll fall pretty much the same speed as in the tunnel. The only differences (why you'll fall slightly faster up there) are due to air density difference but that doesn't make any big difference (after all, it affects everyone else the same way). And given your extreme ability to arch, I'm sure you'll have a wide range of fall speeds to choose after some practice.

As others already said, keep up, listen to your instructors, you'll do just fine :)

3 hours ago, sfzombie13 said:

i did a half hour in the tunnel at ifly in cincinatti, and they used real air inside.  i then took my newly found skills to an airplane and jumped out (actually just let go of the strut, but whatever) and did the exact same thing and it worked just like it did in the tunnel.  i am not an instructor however, and you should take anything i say accordingly.  i have been trying to fly flat and stable in the air for years and only learned after the tunnel.  turns out it was my leg position and since i was only in the air by myself would have taken a much longer time figuring it out on my own.  when i went to the tunnel, i told them i was a skydiver needing to learn how to be stable and they put the airspeed on 120 the whole time.  maybe that is what the instructors were talking about, as they usually (from what i have heard and read) lower the speed for "indoor flying" or whatever they call flying for fun.

25 minutes ago, Binary93 said:

You take the same posture you'll fall pretty much the same speed as in the tunnel. The only differences (why you'll fall slightly faster up there) are due to air density difference but that doesn't make any big difference (after all, it affects everyone else the same way). And given your extreme ability to arch, I'm sure you'll have a wide range of fall speeds to choose after some practice.

As others already said, keep up, listen to your instructors, you'll do just fine :)

Thank you both of you! air density! that's physics lol!

36 minutes ago, Binary93 said:

The only differences (why you'll fall slightly faster up there) are due to air density difference but that doesn't make any big difference (after all, it affects everyone else the same way)

you'll also be wearing thirty pounds of parachute gear. That'll make you fall faster.

2 hours ago, betzilla said:

you'll also be wearing thirty pounds of parachute gear. That'll make you fall faster.

yupp

22 hours ago, David Wang said:

 

 

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You look really stable, especially for only having a few jumps under your belt. 

As mentioned just go with the flow and you will do fine

7 hours ago, Nabz said:

You look really stable, especially for only having a few jumps under your belt. 

As mentioned just go with the flow and you will do fine

ok

On 1/21/2020 at 6:35 PM, betzilla said:

you'll also be wearing thirty pounds of parachute gear. That'll make you fall faster.

and also it will modify your center of gravity, and limit your ability to arch. Pretty serious arch man, congratulations. As mentioned above, I am also jealous of that one. I still feel pretty young, and am rather thin, but flexible like an ironing board.

keep on like that, have fun, you are just at the beginning of an adventure.

22 hours ago, piisfish said:

and also it will modify your center of gravity, and limit your ability to arch. Pretty serious arch man, congratulations. As mentioned above, I am also jealous of that one. I still feel pretty young, and am rather thin, but flexible like an ironing board.

keep on like that, have fun, you are just at the beginning of an adventure.

absolutely a great  adventure ahead of me! thanks buddy! 

My take on where you find yourself:  The tunnel is great to refine and to learn new disciplines, BUT unless one of your AFF instructors tells you that you NEED tunnel time, stop wasting that money.  Get checked off and get that A license. 

On a side note, the other day I over heard a student tell the instructor that she didn't think it was good to look first in the direction BEFORE starting the flat turn, because I guess in her mind that caused instability. So just go into it blindly???  If your NOT a strong instructor who can be FIRM and educated people correctly, please do something else with your time. 

That being said Mr Wang, be a good student, if and when something doesn't sound right or safe, by all means question it. BUT also know when to listen and follow simple instructions. 

Excuse me while I step down off the soap box!   

On 1/25/2020 at 3:11 PM, timski said:

On a side note, the other day I over heard a student tell the instructor that she didn't think it was good to look first in the direction BEFORE starting the flat turn

Are you talking freefall, or canopy?

Because in freefall (and that's what we've been talking about), you definitely do not want to look where you're going when turning.  

yeah, FF. So just turn blindly huh? I'll just keep flying solo wingsuit, where I feel somewhat safer.  

That's a strong arch buddy, I imagine you could surprise an instructor with it haha! A faster fall rate allows you to turn effectively with a smaller input, usually, in AFF, things happen in a more "slow motion" way. Don't sweat, you'll be fine.